NEED HELP! A Begginers Setup for Autox and Track Days

I am trying to set up my Acura RSX Type-S for Auto X & Track days. I not only want to go out there, have fun, and improve; I also want to be competitive. So as we know my little Honda comes factory with a TON of understeer, Mcpherson strut suspension and a factory tower strut bar. Ive already ordered a plethora of parts to help me reach my goal. id like you all to tell me if this is a good combination (im only including suspension mods)

already have> 1. BC Racing BR Type Coilovers 10/12 spring rate 30 levels of dampening adjustibility 2. Semi Solid Polyurethane motor mounts 88a 3. NRG FRP Racing bucket seats 4. Megan Racing Rear camber adjusters

thinking about buying>

1. 22 or 24mm rear sway bar
2. Maxxis RC1 or Nitto Neogen Tires

The only other thing to improve is myself...what do yall think?

RC1s are Rcomps (racing compound) and Neo Gens are "high performance" all seasons. Two completely different types of tire.

If you are a beginner, starting out on something like the RC1 is a mistake in my opinion. They can hide a lot of faults in your driving and they are not as forgiving in the way they lose traction. You'll learn a lot more by starting off with a tire with less grip. That being said, using an all season tire might be too far of a swing in the opposite direction.
Any of the readily available max/ extreme summer tires would be a much better starting point imho.

As far as all the suspension parts, it seems like you may addressing issues with the car that the internet says is there, vs becoming familiar with the car yourself first (in its stock form) and then making changes based on how the car behaves when YOU drive it.

My .02

The first question is, of course, how many autocrosses and/or track days have you done? What specific issues are you trying to address? What autocross class will you be running in?

so Ive run a total of 2 autocross events and each time I had MASSIVE MASSIVE understeer...but I was also on mismatched tires no where near performance compounds and I was on terrible Raceland suspension (a decision I will forever regret) as well as my lower control arm bushing on the driver side was worn and torn. Did I mention my tires were awful? lol so I was extremely unprepared but I vowed that the next time I came out id be ready....so 7 months later here I am halfway through a tour overseas with the Army and I've ordered quite a bit of parts. Ill also be raising my hp from a solid 205ish whp to around 230whp with some bolt-ons and dyno tuning.

so now I need to know what tires I can use to be competitive at the track and ride home on? should I spend money on chasis bracing? are rear sway bars a good idea? im about to pull the trigger on that one

If you're starting from ground zero as a novice, don't buy anything other than a helmet and tire gauge. Get the car to a decent baseline, ie replace that bushing, then leave it at baseline while you get some experience.

Spending time/money on suspension, tires, etc 'feels' like the right thing to do at first, but it will actually at best have no effect on you as a driver.

The big limiting factor will be the loose nut behind the wheel; the thing that will make you a better, faster driver is seat time.

dang, you sound a lot like me when I first started out ('01 Integra LS) that car had a much better suspension straight from the factory (A-arm suspension as opposed to strut type) but I was of the opinion that I was a pretty good driver … you know, after all those yrs of "high speed" driving on our mountain roads … LOL …

after I got my arse handed to me on the first few a-x's, I started throwing parts and tires at it… eventually I figured out that the car was pretty good, and that I was what needed to be improved .. went to as many a-x's as I could 25+ per season, took any school that was available (including an Evolution Pro driving school … http://www.evoschool.com) … now after 12 yrs of doing this I also realize that I need even more schooling … track time … listening to the top drivers in my class (and others) … getting the local hotshoe to drive my car, getting them to let me ride with them … etc … i.e. improving me, not the car

as to your car:

there has been a lot of chatter about the RSX being, potentially an overdog, in STX … but to make it handle, the supposed top guns seem to think that it would have to have MASSIVE rear spring rates to make it autocross drivable,(essentially making the rear suspension a non suspension… more like a kart) which might make it nearly un-drivable for the street (assuming it would be a dual purpose car) … rear spring rates at 1000 # or more … I'm assuming that the same thinking would carry over to a track car

oh … and listen to XLR99 for the time being

I'm with a few of the other guys, you are a slower driver than the car is capable of doing right now. You haven't raced enough to buy a bunch of performance parts. It's very tempting to buy a truckload of go-fast goodies, but if you truly want to be able to get top 10 Pax and raw times in your region and neighboring regions, you need to drive, then drive, then drive some more. If you even think you want to be able to be good enough to not get killed at the Solo National Championships, you have to be an excellent driver. I would say to make sure that your car is maintained, then do 8 autocross events or a full season before you make changes to your car. For example, you haven't learned to not have your car plow all over the auto-x course yet. When I started with my 97 Civic, I bought Koni yellows, EBC slotted rotors, and re-installed lowering springs on it. I was still slow, because I didn't know how to race back then.

As the others have said I agree with, take your time to learn the car as is (once you do the basic maintenance and matching set of summer tires) because once you do learn it you can actually feel what differences you do with the mods you end up buying.

Most importantly, HAVE FUN! That's why you are there.

Listen to the advice here. The driver is the most important part of a car at autocross. Have one of the faster guys there drive it for a run or two, you'll be surprised at how much more time they'll get out of the same car than you. That's not a dig at you but its a great litmus test before spending money on new parts. A guy here did that and he knocked 4 seconds off my time on a 60 second course, so now I have a better idea what I can do with the car as it sits now.

I wouldn't spend another penny on parts. Get a good tire pressure gauge and have one of the experienced guys help you dial in pressures that work for you and your car. The rest of your focus need to be on seat time and experience. You'll be amazed at how many bad handling characteristics that "the car" is doing are actually the result of the driver (not a dig at you by any means).

Another thing that helps is to hop rides with a hot shoe driver, especially one with a similar car. See what lines they take through certain elements, see where they brake, watch their steering inputs. You can learn soooooo much off of just ride with a good driver.

And most important, have FUN!!!!!!!! Don't take it too seriously, enjoy the time in the car and the newfound comradery with the folks in your region! The best friends in my life all came from the local autocross.

Learning to drive around that understeer is part of the equation. Back off when entering the corner, car will oversteer, apply throttle gently to control the drift. When front wheels are straight, pounce on the throttle. If the wheels are spinning, back off a little. Next corner, repeat.

One thing I didn't see mentioned is that any modification puts you in a faster class. One trick is to loosen the attaching bolts in the front suspension. Push pull to gain the most camber. tighten bolts.

Run much more air pressure in the rear tires than the front.

How are your shocks ? Go over the suspension to make sure all bushings etc. are good.

Then go drive your car, learn, learn, learn.

I would consider losing the Racelands that the OP has on the car. Actually I'd probably go back to something like Konis+stock springs, but that's just me.

Other than that, tightening the loose nut behind the wheel will result in the biggest improvement.

I thought the same thing about my Spec V the first few times I took it out. "Horrible, understeering pig, must need parts", I thought. Then one of the club instructors said, "Mind if I take it for spin? Why don't you ride with me and we'll see what this thing will do?" What followed was about 40 seconds of on my part, followed by a result at least 10-20% faster than what I was doing. The proper mix of timely weight transfer, smooth steering inputs and trail braking eliminated 90% of what I was griping about. I drove it the rest of the season "as is", until I finally started to extract most of what the car was capable of. I didn't start making changes to the car until the second season I ran it. By then, I knew what class I wanted to run it in, what tires to buy and what order to buy parts in to get the most "bang for my buck".

What are your alignment settings? What are your tire pressures?

tire pressures will depend on the tire … example: when I was running Bridgestone RE-11's (this was with my CRX) I ran 35 - 36 psi front and 40 - 42 psi rear

same car but with Toyo R1R's I run 23 - 26 psi front and 30 - 32 psi rear

with the 'stones I was using 205/50/15's and the Toyo's 195/50/15's

as for alignment … again it will depend on the car, and the mods you've done

but a good rule of thumb is to get as much neg. camber (front) as you can … in my case I'm at 3.x° neg. camber, and up to a point, as much pos caster as you can get

as for toe … the more toe you run the more quickly your tires will wear out … but a little toe out will help turn in … and depending on the mods again, either front or rear … though usually rear (toe out isn't usually recommended for the track)

again in my case, I'm at -1 1/2° rear and like I said above - 3° front … OEM caster (I've got a set of custom radius rods that will allow some pos. caster)

and with toe at zero front and rear

If you are still running off brand mismatched tires get a set of something daily usable like RS3's or star specs and a proper autocross alignment. Or get the alignment regardless. Do a few events like this say at least 2-3 autoX or 2 track days then evaluate the sway bar if you still have real issues with rotation.

Also don't forget to do the important safety things like bleeding brakes and using high temp fluid and upgrading your brake pads

I put star specs on my miata and nothing else then did a year of autocross and a track day. I am just now going to wider wheels/coil overs and the 225/45/15 RC-1s

But here is the thing when I first started approaching the cars limits was something I as afraid of and I didn't know what it felt like/how to handle it. Now I know for the most part exactly what it feels like and the car sliding whether its under or oversteer is a non issue. Read the below, I went from an underdeveloped to borderline overdeveloped driver who is now working on refinement.

http://www.motoiq.com/MagazineArticles/ID/3519/DRIVER-DEVELOPMENT-Car-Control.aspx

My first track car (a 2002 SVT focus) I threw way to much money at parts before I even knew how the car "worked" coil overs, data acq, header, exhaust, intake, udp, wheels tires etc

Wow! You Guys are awesome! So much help and wisdom in one place haha im in love with this forum already. Ok, so ill stop buying parts and just wait till I get back from overseas to get some seat time? Cool! However I did buy an Energy Suspension Front Lower Control Arm Bushing kit yesterday (my stock ones were garbage before I left). My wife and my wallet are thanking you all already haha...

ok what I am gathering is that I need to obviously buy a new set of matching, performance oriented tires, and a tire gauge and just attend as any events as possible. And then tinker with different setups as I race; such as higher tire pressure in the rear than the front. as for my coilovers the racelands are getting replaced with BC racing BR types sitting at home right now that have a 10k/12k spring rate and for tires ive been looking at re11s or Neogens or something of the sort...yokohama any good?

Another main reason to get decent but not crazy tires is they hold up to the heat of autox and track days better. Look for any of the "200 treadwear" Extreme performance summer tires, if you need all weather tire go continental DWS I think is the consensus however Dunlop Star specs are pretty good in the wet also.

For dry its either Hankook Ventus RS-3 v2's or BF Goodrich Rivals usually (often the best tire depends on the car heavier cars like diff tires than light ones for instance) I'd find an autoX sub forum on your favorite forum for your cars make. IF as mentioned above your car happens to be a car people like for STX just google STX yourcarhere and see what tires people say they are running. For SCCA autoX most will be 200TW+ which will be a street tire and won't be R-compound like the RC-1

A cheap pen type pressure gauge will work in a pinch, but I would recommend a nice dial type gauge. Also don't forget a way of adding pressure to the tires too, be it a portable compressed air tank that you fill with your home compressor, or a mini air compressor that plugs into the cigarette lighter ("accessory power outlet") in your car.

Note that from the 'peak grip' tire pressure on the rear, you can go either up or down in pressure to help balance the car, each having somewhat different characteristics and feel.

I would also recommend picking up some chalk for your tires. Mark the outside edge of each front tire in 3 or 4 places before each run, to see how far you're rolling on to the outside edge. This will help you dial in your front tire pressures. Obviously camber is the gross adjustment used to maximize use of the tire, but at any given event you'll actually be using the tire pressures fine tune it...Or if necessary, even to help make up for a distinct lack of camber.

Also definitely get the performance alignment. There may be RSX specific recommendations available online from experienced autoxers. Otherwise, there are some general guidelines (like wbjones' notes) that can get you started. Doing this can actually improve your tire wear/life if you do a lot of events.

Do your coilovers come with camber plates? If so, you may have to find a dedicated performance/race shop to do this, as typical tire/alignment shop personnel are not likely to be overly knowledgeable in working outside of factory specs, let alone chasing detailed measurements with aftermarket parts. They're also trying to get cars through as quick as possible, and aren't often interested in attaining perfection for you. There are some exceptions to the rule out there though. The performance/race shop may not be a bad idea anyways, as with the coilovers they'll be able to corner balance the car while you're there too.

However, if you don't have camber plates, then you can easily max out the camber yourself at home before you take the car in for the alignment. Then all they have to do is hit your requested toe settings, which even chain stores may be willing to do for you.

I believe Acura may have even had factory 'crash bolts' for when additional camber adjustments are necessary. If you don't have camber plates, these may be an affordable option to get a bit more camber for now too.

As you get further in, you'll find that a maximized autox setup differs from a maximized track setup...A car that is set up to do both will not be ideally set up for either.

EP3/DC5 guy here.

Driving experience aside, if you want to be fairly competitive in local sanctioned autoxing, you can do ok. Anything else , you're in the wrong car and it's been proven time and time again. Lots of suspension design weaknesses. To make the DC5 handle really well, which it can, you'll get bumped into even faster groups and will not be competetive. But you will have lots of fun.

Will this be a dd and part time tracker? What's your budget? I wouldn't go near the Maxxis tire level without a season or two under your belt. I would consider getting your understeer to a controllable level and a few other things or you'll be very frustrated with the handling.

Did you just buy the BC coilovers? I hope not as there are better options for a similar cost but they are pretty decent. Someone mentioned doubling the size of the rear springs in relation to the fronts and that's pretty much the case but not essential with a 10k front. 12k/680 lb. rears won't cut it eventually, though. The motion ratio in the rear requires around double the rate to compensate. I'm pretty sure you can up the rear springs a little without having to re-calibrate but I'm not sure. With the 10k fronts (560 lbs.) and stock weight you're just at the point where you can remove the front bar and really improve the balance. I wouldn't waste your time upping the rear to 22mm as the 2005-2006 S bar is 21mm and you'll barely notice the difference. If you do get a bar, start with the Progress 24mm. It's adjustable, has a reinforcing plate to improve the connecting point strength, and comes with end links, shipped for $260.00 from K Series. But you could hold off for the meantime with a new rear bar and play with tire psi and alignment.

Down the road, if you want to get serious, the rear suspension will need big boy springs as there are several weaknesses that need to be minimized.

Your oem bushings, front and rear, have been toast for a long time. Go with harder rubber or Energy Suspension or even poly offset or solid offset bushings, depending on how serious you are. I mean if you're in there, you might as well do it right so you don't have to go back any time soon. Also consider Type R lcas as they widen the track, weigh 6 lbs. less, and give you some caster. Big difference. They also still might have decent harder rubber bushings in them. Caster is a HUGE need for the DC5/EP3 due to the McPherson-deminishing-camber problem. More on caster if you want to know.

Definitely get front camber bolts. I think one per side will net up to -1.5 or thereabouts. -1.5 would be ok to start but it isn't the same car as when around -2.5 to -3 so consider 2 per side. Or caster/camber plates. The rear camber is generally set at about 1/2 the rate of the fronts, depending.

Since you need tires, you might as well go with Extreme Summers, although some might feel you should go with less adhesive tires to start with. The RSX has pretty big wheel wells but you might start out with 225s or 245s, although you can reverse stagger with 275 fronts/245 rears. Your K20 and lsd can handle some nice tread... Btw, you are already at 205 whp., you would probably be faster at this time without the 230hp. The DC5 needs more control before hp.

Those are some of the basics for a starter at stock weight. My EP's weight is -430 lbs. at around 2350 lbs. and dropping at least another 100 soon with a final goal of 2175. That's Gen 5/6 territory and it's a completely different car (close, but it's still not a gen 5/6) without the weight and is still my dd. It just depends where you want to take it.

That's it for now. As with any car, there are lots and lots more tricks.

edit; forgot, don't lower suspension more than 3/4 -1" or your handling will definitely suffer. There are ways around this but at a more advanced level.

yooo so much awesomeness in one place. Thank you a million times for all the advice. So the BC coilovers i have do come with front camber plates so no need for bolts i dont think. And they have dampening adjustability if that helps answer ur questions. So ill make sure i have a tire pressure gauge and a portable pump with me at autocross!! I need to find a place to give me a racing alignment and to corner balance my suspension. I think my choices are limited for that in Central Florida though. As stated earlier i did order Energy suspension front lca bushings but now that im thinking about it i might get the solid pci spherical ones. And everyone always recommends the 24mm swaybar with this car as almost a prerequisite. And im already running 17 inch enkei rs7s and i run 224 45 17 tires...but back to the bushings yes they suck all over the place but so far the most important ones are the lcas so ill attack those bushings first

spherical (solid) will knock you out of STX and put you in SP at least, maybe SM … either of which will be MUCH harder to become competitive with your minimal background …

poly is ok, Delrin (if you have a machine shop that can make them for you) is better … the life of poly is relatively short … I've just moved back to Mugen hard rubber (a harder version of the OEM rubber)

due to the limitations of the DC5 suspension (thank you Honda) the rear needs to become almost a "solid" suspension … a la like a kart … which is what Hasbro was getting on about with your choice of 10k/12k springs … the rear will eventually need to be double that of the front

he also mentioned removing the front sway bar … it's been a FWD trick for a long time … personally I like a tiny bit of front sway bar, which is why I have the CRX HF front bar (~ 10 - 12mm) with the 22mm rear bar

you keep going back to the Neogens, I think Driven5 mentioned finding STX/RSX specific forums and find out what they're running … though I'm betting that it'll be Dunlop Star Specs, or Hankook RS-3v2 .. on the lighter cars (my CRX, Miata's etc ..) the Toyo R1R has been the go to tire for several yrs '

whatever you get, make sure they have a tread wear rating of at least 200 (the new requirement from SCCA) which most non-affiliated clubs are also going with.. you don't want to get something lower and be relegated to a tougher class just because of your tires

Ooops sorry i was using the neogens as a reference but now i realize that its out of my league so ill look at some toyos or continentals or something that is competitive but will keep me in stx class. Ill go search my car forum and find out..and ok so no spherical bearings....and ive heard that when you take the front sway off the front becomes sloppy...others say it feels great..besides tire pressure, a rear sway bar and springs what are some other mods i can do to make the rear stiff? What other problems ail the DC5 as far as handling?

I remember how Realtime got their RSX's to turn. Their "secret" to making the rear suspension work was to not let it work. IIRC, they were running 1500lb rear springs at one point. It's a terrible design and about 3 steps backward from the fantastic Integra chassis.

With that said..... stop wasting money on parts. Buy a single, decent set of tires and wear them out. Most local regions offer some form of novice schools, novice programs to help guide people etc. What you need is seat time and instruction, then you can decide if the car is right or wrong for what you want.