Need HP in a miata, what is the answer for the answer?

Good news after 15 months I finally got a settlement from my Miata killing wreck which means this summer I'm building my shop, and as soon as it is done i'll jump into my next project. So I'm want a Miata, and I want HP. Yall help me figure out how to do that.

Clearly the best option is pony up a bunch of cash, and send your car to Keith. I can't swing that financially and I also want to build it myself, despite the fact that I know it won't be as good as what Flyin Miata, or any other professional would do.

So what's the grassroots answer?

My thoughts -

Forced induction - Easiest, cheapest, proven, lowest total HP without reaching deep into the engine. this was my default, till I went and added up how much it would cost to do the turbo and all the supporting mods. I got to 10k pretty quick (adding every cooling improvement they offer since heat is a known issue). So while it's the cheapest you are now really overstressing all the components.

LS swap - this is awesome if you are going to order one of the new LS3. it takes the most work but the results have to be mindblowing. However, crate LS3's are 10k, which is a little steep for me. If you go with the grassroots option and source a used engine and tranny from a junkyard or donor car, you are looking at at least a 10 year old car (gto) or 15 for a ls1 Camaro. So they are going to have either high miles, or have sat in a junkyard quite a while. I'd want to at least crack it open The LS1 only has 305-325 hp stock. 400 for the GTO donor. You add a couple hundred pounds as well.

Now the LFX swap is out there. At first I thought that settling the for the v6 was down right un-American and bordering on blasphemy. Then I saw it actually drops weight from the BP, and has 325 HP stock. It takes less work to get in, and the engine/trans are very cheap compared to the LS/T56.

What are other pro's and cons to each option? anything I'm overlooking or not considering?

Keith, do you sell the LFX kit from V8Roadsters?

It always goes without saying "how much do you need/what are your goals?"

If you want a reliable 300 hp Miata without too much drama the Honda J motor swap seems like a pretty cool choice.

There's also the ecotec swap built by someone on here or one of their friends. Still needs turbo, though.

Ive been leaning towards ecotec. Seems like a good choice.

Don't forget that the V8 swaps are more than "just" an engine+tranny swap, you're looking at different rear diffs and all that jazz as well.

I think the answer to your question is "it depends", namely on your goals. HP and otherwise.

Number 1 goal is to keep up with my dads s2000 on track. That's the bare minimum. More is always better.

Does the ecotec use the Miata trans? What are the turbo options?

Budget I'd like to be all in around 20k parts

We need to figure what order of magnitude we're looking at here.

For 250 rwhp, a turbo is the well-proven and well-developed answer. It's easy and you can do it in steps if you want. At that power level, you're in the comfort zone of pretty much all the components. It can show weakness on track if you really hammer it and have no mechanical empathy, as will any vehicle. For a street car, you do not need every possible cooling upgrade and you can expect reliable use for the full lifespan of the car if it's well installed in the first place.

For 400+, LSx. Costs about the same as bringing a turbo 4 to the same power level, only now you have a complete drivetrain that's designed to handle the power and a big shot of torque. Well developed, well supported, well known. The extra weight is well compensated by the extra power - 200 lbs for more than 400 lbs of torque is a worthwhile tradeoff. The nuclear option. But it's not cheap.

The LFX is either the worst combination of attributes or the best. It's as much work as an LSx and there are some difficulties that get glossed over in the writeups. I want to see actual wet before/after weights on a fully functional car before I'll believe a weight loss over a BP, but it will be a bit lighter than the V8. The actual engine and trans are cheaper - although that's a fairly small proportion of the total swap cost. It will require a rear end swap thanks to the gearing. The thing about engine swaps is that everyone wants the second one done, after that it's "played out" and "everywhere". That's a big reason for the LFX enthusiasm, I think. It's different. We do not sell the LFX parts. Expect some problem solving to be required - V8R is more into the big picture than the details.

There's also Honda K, Honda J and Ecotec. They all keep the stock trans, so if you're worried about it with the turbo BP then you should still be worried about it. None of them are what I'd consider to be fully sorted yet, and there have been an number of well-prepped K track builds that have had engine failures. Not enough for me to determine why, but enough that I'm starting to think it's not coincidence. 949 Racing and the One Lap Miata are the two big examples. Still, they all offer interesting options for the problem solver and DIY builder. Personally, I don't like the feel of the Ecotec engine (in my limited experience with one) so I find the Honda options preferable.

Edit: keep up with an S2000? Turbo, no problem. Spend your $10k on power, then invest some money in a good suspension, wheels and tires. You'll still be well under budget. An LSx Miata will run over an S2000 like the Honda's stuck in reverse. Been there.

OR get an ND. I've passed S2000s on track with those.

As usual Keith Tanner has the goods. The one thing that's worth noting is that if you plan to regularly track your turbo Miata, practically everyone who does so seems to mention that a decent bit of attention is needed to keep the mechanical components happy - moreso than a more lightly stressed system.

$20k is a lot of money. I don't think that I'd put that much into a Miata. What about 2 of them? I know that you have the jones for a Paco log-travel setup... I'll just muddy the waters by suggesting that you build a normally aspirated Exocet to beat your dad with, then throw the Long travel kit on a long-in-the-tooth NA that you can beat up without feeling bad about it.

It always pleases me that The Answer to questions about The Answer is to get another Answer!

I like the way Kreb thinks I'd love to roll up to the local off-road spot in a lifted miata. But I also want this to be pretty streetable

I've driven a FM LS swapped Mazdaspeed Miata. It's "Holy berkleying berk!" fast and awesome.

For a more modestly priced swap that would eat S2000s for breakfast, I'd be looking at the Honda 3.2/3.5 V6 swap that the superfastmiatas guys offer. You get V6 torque and you get to keep the miata transmission (One of the best parts of the car)

mmmmm, ND...

1LR-GUE swap

And just cause this IS Grassroots Motorports, I will toss out the Ford 302 option as a potential budget path to V8 goodness in a Miata.

This persons blog is well worth the read. The DIY insight is top notch and reflects what a true homebuilt Miata V8 conversion will entail. Pay attention to how to get the rear end conversion to 8.8 ford center section and FF axles for less than $2000

http://miatav8.blogspot.ca/2014/01/rear-subframe.html

I'll chime in here regarding the K24 swap reliability.

There have not been a number of well-prepped K track builds that have had engine failures. Andy Hollis had a built engine that let go, but has no data to show why, and engine inspection didn't point to anything that would indicate it was due to the swap kit. 949 Racing has had zero issues with reliability with their car. We have dozens of customers at race tracks all over the country pushing the cars to the limits, on slicks, and are thrilled with them. ST3/TT3 is going to be home to a lot of these cars in 2017.

We've done over 3 years of grueling testing with the K series swap. Much of it was with a k20/k24 build, on 15x10s with 275 hoosiers, revving to 8200 rpm. We've found what works and what doesn't work. At Miatas at MRLS this year, we punished the test mule car in twenty track sessions over the weekend, multiple drivers, 30+ passengers, and the car just keeps going.

Don't worry about the trans. You're making 180-190wtq, from an N/A linear powerband, so less torque than turbo Miata guys. You want a 6 speed anyway for a track car for the closer gearing. For those wanting to make big power (because these engines can), we aim to have an upgraded transmission option available early 2017.

Also for 2017, we will be competing in World Racing League with a new enduro car that's in the works right now. Based on our experience, we expect to see 8 hour races, back to back, without any drivetrain related issues. The goal is to continue to show that the K swap is a fantastic option for those wanting anywhere from 220whp to 300+whp from an N/A 4 cylinder.

I don't get the V8 hype, I mean its cool but for the cost there are a lot of other things you can build.

IMO find the best car you can, call Keith up and get a Targa package like the link below. Upgrade to the fox shocks and the stiffer brake packages, add in some serious bracing 9K OTD. Install over a few weekend add in seriously sticky tires and enjoy the car.

https://www.flyinmiata.com/targa-package-soft-top-cars.html

Robbie wrote: mmmmm, ND...

I know where you can buy a new 2016 Club in white, for not all that much more than $20k...

icaneat50eggs wrote: I like the way Karen thinks I'd love to roll up to the local off-road spot in a lifted miata. But I also want this to be pretty streetable

The OffRoadster is streetable. Paco drove it to work today in the snow. It looks a little silly of course but it does get attention!

Are you going to be autocrossing at all or is this just a track day build? The classing of swapping in something with more cylinders would kinda suck. Turbo/supercharger on the 1.8 and all the suspension/aero work you want will put you in SSM which is like CSP on meth and steroids.

I like the turbo in mine. :)

Keith, any updates on the 2.0/2.3 Ecoboost crate engine in a NC? Did FM work out anything regarding the NC's ECU/CANbus/Ford Controls Pack?

20b and a shotgun. Probably in that order.

Otherwise what Wearymicrobe and Keith suggested would be a really solid fun plan.

icaneat50eggs wrote: Number 1 goal is to keep up with my dads s2000 on track. That's the bare minimum. More is always better.

The lowest cost option would be to "adjust" you dad's s2000 when he's not looking so that it's a little slower. The next best would be the turbo setup and some suspension stuff. I think that'll get you where you want to be the quickest and cheapest.

The K appeals to me personally, best NA I4 ever with proven power upgrades. Keep the character of the car intact, without the complexity of a forced induction solution. If you're talking LS power and torque, I'd rather have a little bigger, longer wheelbase car.

Yeah, if I had the Manic Miata do do over, I'd probably go with a built K24.