Need some input on suspension

Good deal, keep us posted if this solves your problem.

Short story: The word of the day is composed. As in, my car feels much more composed now.

Long story: I got the installation done yesterday afternoon. I manually tested the stock rear shocks vs the Konis and kept increasing the rebound damping until I could feel that they had more than stock. I wound up setting the rears at 1-1/2 out of 2 turns. I started with the fronts at 1/2 out of 2 turns. After the first drive I set the fronts up to 1 out of 2 turns. The vibration coming through the steering wheel is probably 1/4 of what it was before. The head shake from the sway bars is dramatically reduced. Honestly it feels like a different car.

The only thing that seems to be worse is that the car seems to lose traction a little easier. The SuperPro LCA bushings added a degree of caster and a degree of anti-lift. Black Forest Industries makes an LCA bushing that uses the stock RS-3 rubber with the housing that has the castor and anti-lift. BFI has them on sale for Black Friday so I ordered a set this morning.

Lose traction under which conditions?  Shocks aren't smart enough on their own to start damping at the ideal moment (for accel that would probably be after the spring has fully rebounded with minimal damping and stored some energy in the tire sidewall, vs what it actually does under rebound which keeps the tire less vertically loaded on rebound for a longer time), so you can probably expect less accel traction coming off of bumps to be part of what happens when you 'fix' rebound. You mentioned caster and anti lift so im wondering which conditions you're actually noticing less traction in?

Note that trying to set rebound while stroking the shocks by hand can be a bit misleading. The amount of damping varies with the velocity of the shaft, and the velocity you can manage by hand manipulation is basically off the chart because that's not a speed range you tend to see in actual use. I suspect you've got this thing overdamped right now - Koni Sports on stock springs tend to prefer to be close to full soft.

But we are definitely going in the right direction!

Vigo (Forum Supporter) said:

Lose traction under which conditions?  

The front tires will light up on launch from a standing start. This is a known issue with this car. That was the main purpose for installing the LCA bushings with anti-lift. 

Less front rebound damping would probably improve the wheel spin situation too.

Keith Tanner said:

Note that trying to set rebound while stroking the shocks by hand can be a bit misleading. The amount of damping varies with the velocity of the shaft, and the velocity you can manage by hand manipulation is basically off the chart because that's not a speed range you tend to see in actual use. I suspect you've got this thing overdamped right now - Koni Sports on stock springs tend to prefer to be close to full soft.

But we are definitely going in the right direction!

I'm sure you're right about working the shocks by hand. I looked at where others were setting these shocks on the GTI forum. Most people had them somewhere around 1 turn each. I figured that the stiff sway bars contribute to the springs on rebound so I set the rears .5 turn more.

The rears need to be completely removed to be adjusted. Ideally I'll get a day to set them to zero and take some test drives the in the near future. In the meantime it feels a lot better to drive.  

A minor update. I did some more research yesterday and found a few posts by a guy who was a test driver for an OEM. He also won some kind of road racing championship in the past. I've read his posts before and his advice is usually spot on. His recommendation was to set the Konis to, wait for it, 1 turn in front and 1 to 1-1/2 in the rear. He also explained how to adjust the rears without completely removing them from the car. It should save about 20 minutes per side. This weekend I'll try reducing the damping on the rear and see how the car responds.

The guys at Koni - such as Lee Grimes - are also very accessible as well.

There is absolutely no better way to learn about setup than to screw with the car's settings and see how it feels. I've had the Konis in and out of my own VW about a dozen times experimenting. My settings are probably not much use to you, though, it's got a Subaru engine and a house on top :)

I've played with the settings for the fronts a bit. I've tried 0-1 turns from soft on the fronts. Anything below 3/4 and the car is bouncing around even on fairly smooth pavement. 1 turn is where the car starts to gel with the road.

I'll play with the rear settings this weekend if I get some time. 

I tried 1-1/4 turns up from soft front last night. The car felt like it was wallowing around and the camber plates started clicking *A LOT*. I'm assuming the clicking means that the springs couldn't recover before hitting the next bump hit. I put them back to 1 turn and the car returned to its previous glorious ride.

I think the clicking is because you're putting more energy into the shock shaft with the increased damping and so a slight bit of movement in the bearings/bushings/whatever is at the top of the shock starts to occur. I've seen it on other applications. The springs should not be going fully unloaded, that's unlikely to be the noise.

Starting soft and increasing the damping until the car starts to gel with the road is the way to do it. It's a lot easier to feel than starting stiff and going softer.

Here's an update: I've been really happy with the car other than the clicking I keep hearing from the passenger side camber plate. I called the guys at Ground Control today and was told that "it's really rare but it's possible that the pillow ball bearing in the plate might have too much wear". He told me to rock the car while I held my finger against the strut nut and camber plate. "If you can feel any play then it needs to be replaced." Sure enough, there's play in the bearing. I'm pretty sure that bearing has had this problem from the day I installed the camber plates. 

I'm going to order the replacement bearing tomorrow. It sounds like the replacement procedure isn't too hard once you get the strut out of the car.

If you're on stock springs consider going a bit softer on the rebound. When I was on stock springs and now on Eibach ProKits, I'm at a half turn from soft at the front and 3/4 turn from soft at the rear.

My GTI has a somewhat similar setup. Koni Sports + Eibach springs, Eibach 26/23 mm swaybars (set soft/soft), Audi TT LCA bushings in stock housings (I don't want more caster), Superpro adjustable ball joints, poly bushings in the rear trailing arms, and lightweight 17" wheels.

I am beyond happy with how the car handles. Ride quality is still decent too.

CAinCA said:

I've played with the settings for the fronts a bit. I've tried 0-1 turns from soft on the fronts. Anything below 3/4 and the car is bouncing around even on fairly smooth pavement. 1 turn is where the car starts to gel with the road.

I'll play with the rear settings this weekend if I get some time. 

Like a dummy I caught this after my prior post.  It's interesting how different people regard different rebound adjustments on the same damper.  When I was playing with 1+ turns from soft I thought the car felt too stiff and lifeless.

CAinCA said:

Here's an update: I've been really happy with the car other than the clicking I keep hearing from the passenger side camber plate. I called the guys at Ground Control today and was told that "it's really rare but it's possible that the pillow ball bearing in the plate might have too much wear". He told me to rock the car while I held my finger against the strut nut and camber plate. "If you can feel any play then it needs to be replaced." Sure enough, there's play in the bearing. I'm pretty sure that bearing has had this problem from the day I installed the camber plates. 

I'm going to order the replacement bearing tomorrow. It sounds like the replacement procedure isn't too hard once you get the strut out of the car.

Spherical bearings don't like axial loads like that. They have to be specified with really tight tolerances and they're still a consumable in the long run. 

Make sure it's play in the bearing and not the bearing moving in the housing. 

Keith Tanner said:

CAinCA said:

Here's an update: I've been really happy with the car other than the clicking I keep hearing from the passenger side camber plate. I called the guys at Ground Control today and was told that "it's really rare but it's possible that the pillow ball bearing in the plate might have too much wear". He told me to rock the car while I held my finger against the strut nut and camber plate. "If you can feel any play then it needs to be replaced." Sure enough, there's play in the bearing. I'm pretty sure that bearing has had this problem from the day I installed the camber plates. 

I'm going to order the replacement bearing tomorrow. It sounds like the replacement procedure isn't too hard once you get the strut out of the car.

Spherical bearings don't like axial loads like that. They have to be specified with really tight tolerances and they're still a consumable in the long run. 

Make sure it's play in the bearing and not the bearing moving in the housing. 

These plates have a huge needle bearing that carries the load from the spring. The bearing only keeps the strut shaft centered and carries the damping loads. According to their web site the bearings are made to their specs by a US manufacturer. I'll double check for bearing to plate slop but according to them the bearing is retained in the plate with Locktite 609 Sleeve Retainer and a snap ring. It shouldn't be moving. 

MrFancypants said:

If you're on stock springs consider going a bit softer on the rebound. When I was on stock springs and now on Eibach ProKits, I'm at a half turn from soft at the front and 3/4 turn from soft at the rear.

My GTI has a somewhat similar setup. Koni Sports + Eibach springs, Eibach 26/23 mm swaybars (set soft/soft), Audi TT LCA bushings in stock housings (I don't want more caster), Superpro adjustable ball joints, poly bushings in the rear trailing arms, and lightweight 17" wheels.

I am beyond happy with how the car handles. Ride quality is still decent too.

The Eibach swaybars are hollow though right? The H&R are solid. I think they are quite a bit stiffer than the Eibachs.

CAinCA said:

Keith Tanner said:

CAinCA said:

Here's an update: I've been really happy with the car other than the clicking I keep hearing from the passenger side camber plate. I called the guys at Ground Control today and was told that "it's really rare but it's possible that the pillow ball bearing in the plate might have too much wear". He told me to rock the car while I held my finger against the strut nut and camber plate. "If you can feel any play then it needs to be replaced." Sure enough, there's play in the bearing. I'm pretty sure that bearing has had this problem from the day I installed the camber plates. 

I'm going to order the replacement bearing tomorrow. It sounds like the replacement procedure isn't too hard once you get the strut out of the car.

Spherical bearings don't like axial loads like that. They have to be specified with really tight tolerances and they're still a consumable in the long run. 

Make sure it's play in the bearing and not the bearing moving in the housing. 

These plates have a huge needle bearing that carries the load from the spring. The bearing only keeps the strut shaft centered and carries the damping loads. According to their web site the bearings are made to their specs by a US manufacturer. I'll double check for bearing to plate slop but according to them the bearing is retained in the plate with Locktite 609 Sleeve Retainer and a snap ring. It shouldn't be moving. 

You'd be surprised at the loads coming through that shock shaft as it fights the springs. That's how ours are set up as well and we have to be very much on top of the spec and the bearing retainer. It SHOULDN'T be moving, which is why you need to check that it isn't. Also, if it's moving then you address that instead of addressing a hammered bearing.

CAinCA said:

MrFancypants said:

If you're on stock springs consider going a bit softer on the rebound. When I was on stock springs and now on Eibach ProKits, I'm at a half turn from soft at the front and 3/4 turn from soft at the rear.

My GTI has a somewhat similar setup. Koni Sports + Eibach springs, Eibach 26/23 mm swaybars (set soft/soft), Audi TT LCA bushings in stock housings (I don't want more caster), Superpro adjustable ball joints, poly bushings in the rear trailing arms, and lightweight 17" wheels.

I am beyond happy with how the car handles. Ride quality is still decent too.

The Eibach swaybars are hollow though right? The H&R are solid. I think they are quite a bit stiffer than the Eibachs.

 

I'm pretty sure they're solid, they definitely felt solid when they weren't on the car; very heavy. I can't say if they are or are not stiffer than the H&R bars but I can say that they're definitely stiff enough. I went with the Eibach setup because Tirerack wanted less for both the bars and springs than H&R wants for just the bars, and I wagered there was a chance that Eibach balanced the rates of the bars and springs against one another.

Keith Tanner said:

The guys at Koni - such as Lee Grimes - are also very accessible as well.

There is absolutely no better way to learn about setup than to screw with the car's settings and see how it feels. I've had the Konis in and out of my own VW about a dozen times experimenting. My settings are probably not much use to you, though, it's got a Subaru engine and a house on top :)

It took a couple weeks but I finally got the parts from Ground Control and fixed the passenger's side plate. It's been back together for a couple weeks. The car is much quieter now. 

I've put some miles on the car since and it feels a little weird in a hard turn. I turn in and then once the suspension settles it wants to oversteer just a little. So I had a 20+ minute call with Lee Grimes today. My head is kinda spinning. That guy can talk and he's like a suspension encyclopedia. Anyway, he agrees with you. It's probably over damped. I'm going to try moving the shocks back to zero turns in the back and then playing with the setting on the front. 

I never liked GC camber plates when I was into BMWs. They were almost always noisy, often popping when the wheels turned. If you have the issue again, see if Vorschlag makes a camber plate for your car. Much better in my experience.

I did have some popping and crunching noises from the front end before I removed the poly bushings and replaced the bearing in the plate. I have heard that Vorschlag has a good reputation. I was also looking at K-Mac camber plates when I bought the Ground Controls.

I finally had a chance to work on the car today. I put the fronts and rears at 1/4" from soft. Lee recommended 0-1/2 from soft so I'm right in the middle of his recommended range. The car sucks up bumps a bit better.