New BRZ/GR86 Vs used sports/GT car

We love what car threads right?  We also like doing stupid things  like cross shopping new cars with old and or modded cars, so let's look at 2022's darling de Jour the newly revised and improved Frisbee twins.  While on paper the differences between the first and second gen cars seems small, the tests are all talking about a pretty significant improvement in performance, interior quality and a lot of small areas, with lots of attention being paid to vehicle dynamics, low CofG, and I would assume polar moment of inertia.  Lot's of people are also calling it a modern 944.  While the 944 is now firmly in classic status and not really a DD these days (Que people coming out of the woodwork talking about running a 250,000 mile 944 for pocket change and lint every day through 10' snow drift for 13 months a year), it makes an interesting comparison.  A quick look at Googlymoogly shows the following performance comparison for the GR86 and 944 series.

Car                Power   Torque   0-60   1/4 mile

86 951           220        243          5.9      14.5

89 951S         247        250          5.9       13.9

944 S2           211         206         6.0       15.5

22 GR86       228         184         5.4       14.0         

While numbers don't tell the whole truth, the fact that is that it stacks up really well in cold hard numbers.  I didn't bother with skid pad or any kind of lap times as tire technology has moved a massive amount in that time too.  This obviously doesn't take into account that massive area under the curve advantage that the Turbos have.

Anyway, the 944's are very old now, let's keep it to a more sensible range.  If we're cross shopping a new car with a used one, I think we really need to concentrate on the best used cars out there.  Above average condition, below average miles so for the same $30k we're talking for a new Frisbee you look to be in the range of a 2012 ish Boxster, an 08-09 ish Cayman, a nice 996 generation 911, or, and this is my personal outlier, the very best late XKR you can find.

Out of curiosity, what are peoples thoughts on cross shopping like this.  While 'normal people' don't cross shop a new car with other 5-20 year old cars, enthusiasts do.

On a personal note, I love Boxsters/Caymans, but I really need at least a vestigial rear seat to carry two dogs, so while I have a Boxster now, it's replacement needs to have doggo room hence the 996/XKR.  I far prefer drop tops, but there aren't any drop top 2+2 sports (as opposed to GT) cars I can think of.

Thoughts?  Other cross shopping choices?  Let's try to keep it to sports cars excluding the obvious answer as other than the lack of soft top I see the twins as being superior in an ND Miata in every way.

HAve at it.

Adrian_Thompson (Forum Supporter) said:

This obviously doesn't take into account that massive area under the curve advantage that the Turbos have.

Tell me you've never driven an 80s turbo without telling me you've ever driven an 80s turbo. That area under the curve exists from 3000 to maybe 5000rpm.

A friend of mine went through a kind of similar thing recently, they were pretty interested in a new 86 and ended up buying a 981 cayman S instead. Now that's not exactly a fair comparison because the 981 cost almost double. Base model was on the table and would have been closer to 86 price (but still quite a bit more) but there weren't any available cheap enough to be worth not just getting the S. But we had a lot of discussions about which direction to go, the conclusion was pretty much that it comes down to how much value you place on having a warranty and the fact that you're getting a brand new car.

Side note on how technology has progressed: the 944 turbo was a $30k car...in 1986. Which accounting for inflation would be around $75k today.

And just for the record I did own a $2500 ~200k mile 944 turbo and ran it for surprisingly cheap, but I had the presence of mind to know that that couldn't last forever and sold it after a year or so before it had the chance to blow up on me.

S2000, MR2, Newer 4cyl Pony cars, Nissan Z and it's various Infiniti counterparts, Cadillac ATS, C5 ZO6, 2012-ish Boss 302 Mustang

In reply to dps214 :

There's a lot of area under the curve, it is just a very tall, narrow area 

Lazy turbos that hit hard when they do wake up make it seem like there is a lot more than there really is.

Pete. (l33t FS) said:

In reply to dps214 :

There's a lot of area under the curve, it is just a very tall, narrow area 

Lazy turbos that hit hard when they do wake up make it seem like there is a lot more than there really is.

Oh yeah, it's definitenely an entertaining driving experience, just not anything like modern turbos that make peak torque basically off idle and carry it most of the way through the rpm range.

dps214 said:

Adrian_Thompson (Forum Supporter) said:

This obviously doesn't take into account that massive area under the curve advantage that the Turbos have.

Tell me you've never driven an 80s turbo without telling me you've ever driven an 80s turbo. That area under the curve exists from 3000 to maybe 5000rpm.

A friend of mine went through a kind of similar thing recently, they were pretty interested in a new 86 and ended up buying a 981 cayman S instead. Now that's not exactly a fair comparison because the 981 cost almost double. Base model was on the table and would have been closer to 86 price (but still quite a bit more) but there weren't any available cheap enough to be worth not just getting the S. But we had a lot of discussions about which direction to go, the conclusion was pretty much that it comes down to how much value you place on having a warranty and the fact that you're getting a brand new car.

Side note on how technology has progressed: the 944 turbo was a $30k car...in 1986. Which accounting for inflation would be around $75k today.

 

And just for the record I did own a $2500 ~200k mile 944 turbo and ran it for surprisingly cheap, but I had the presence of mind to know that that couldn't last forever and sold it after a year or so before it had the chance to blow up on me.

Actually lots of experience with old 80s turbos. Including 930's and 951's.  A 951 has positively instant throttle response in comparison with an old four speed 930. My experience of a 930 goes something like this. 30 mph in second gear, floor it.......30.5 mph, 31 mph, 31 1/2 mph, 35 mph 40 mph 55 mph holy E36 M3 the end of the road coming at me through a time warp mph.  Yes, the 951 is laggy with a relatively narrow talk bend by modern standards, but they still pull harder off of corners than the numbers above would lead you to believe.

If I was going to be spending much more than the theoretical $30k for a frisbee I could see going up to $40k. The problem is that we still way short of either a Boxster or Cayman and they don't have the needed vestigial rear seat.  Also if I we're going to spend $40k it would have to be a drop top WITH a rear seat.  That's pretty much only a 911 of some vintage.

Adrian_Thompson (Forum Supporter) said:

Actually lots of experience with old 80s turbos. Including 930's and 951's.  A 951 has positively instant throttle response in comparison with an old four speed 930. My experience of a 930 goes something like this. 30 mph in second gear, floor it.......30.5 mph, 31 mph, 31 1/2 mph, 35 mph 40 mph 55 mph holy E36 M3 the end of the road coming at me through a time warp mph.  Yes, the 951 is laggy with a relatively narrow talk bend by modern standards, but they still pull harder off of corners than the numbers above would lead you to believe.

Did you ever drive my 951? Lordy, did that thing have some turbo lag. It was a terrible autocross car because of it. 

A modern engine is going to be better than anything that was put into a 944 back in the day, hands down. More durable, torquier, wider powerband, better economy, more reliable, cleaner, you name it. I love 944s, but the engines were not the strong suit of those cars.

You should add a facelift/"krill grille" model ('17-'20?) Toyobaru into your calculations. Not as powerful as the '21+ model but it's way less money, and more reliable and slightly more powerful than the earlier models. Also much easier on the eyes than the latest model IMO

STM317 said:

S2000, MR2, Newer 4cyl Pony cars, Nissan Z and it's various Infiniti counterparts, Cadillac ATS, C5 ZO6, 2012-ish Boss 302 Mustang

S2K No back seat 

MR2 No back seat

Pony cars.  I've had three Mustangs and while great cars, they don't provide the driving experience I want.  Even as great as the may be these days, they are still big heavy and cumbersome. Also I love the environment too much to waste the number of paper sacks I'd have to get through wearing them over my head as a disguise every time I drove a Camaro  

Z cars. no back seat in the modern ones.  Not brave enough or lacking imagination from to consider a ZX 3000 era car, and this from someone who's considered both Jags and Land Rovers.  Infinity versions?  What happened to sports car?  If I wanted to advertise I'd given up on life already I'd go for a Solara convertible.

Caddy ATS. Good one.  Nothing wrong with it but just not a sports car, and if I was going to get a car that size and weight I'd be looking at Jag convertibles again.

Z06.  Damn good idea, and while I don't think you can remove the targa top on those a non Z with Z51 may work, and while No back seat, doggos could fut in the hatch.

BOSS 302.  Nope.  As I said, I don't want any more ponytails, too big and heavy, not my thing these days. Also the boss 302 is holding its value stupendous and well and is in the price range where I'd be shopping a nice 911.

This isn't to say they weren't good ideas. But I'm very much looking for a real sports car, with somew big enough for the dogs to travel hundreds of miles a day or even take the grandkids out for ice cream once in a while.

Adrian_Thompson (Forum Supporter) said:

While the 944 is now firmly in classic status and not really a DD these days (Que people coming out of the woodwork talking about running a 250,000 mile 944 for pocket change and lint every day through 10' snow drift for 13 months a year), it makes an interesting comparison. 

Hi! I drove a 200K+ mile 944 from coast-to-coast just a few months ago! 

Lol, anyway! Yes, I often pine for something new that I don't have to work on and then quickly fall down the rabbit hole of "I can buy a 996TT for that money!" ad naseum (hence my fleet of older higher mileage crazy German cars instead of a pair of sensible boring modern ones). The problem for me is that there are not many modern cars that feel "special". I mean, go to an AX or HPDE and count how many ND's and Frisbees are there. Now count how many 944's, or 996's, or whatever floats your boat. When someone shos up in something oof the wall, THAT'S the car/driver that everyone goes to talk to and look at and they seem to be having fun. What's more important, winning your class of identical Frisbees, or driving one of your literal dream cars and being the only person there doing it? The other thing for me is driver connection. Most modern cars (not including the ND and Frisbees) are totally numb with EPAS, e-throttle, undefeatable stbility control, and often have automatics only. If I want to drive a computer, I will fire up Gran Turismo on my PlayStation. When I am at a FUN car event, I want to be driving something FUN. I want to work to go fast, I want to feel the feedback, and I don't want the car to do anything for me.

Also, my answer for you is a 997 Targa 4S. Price them out, they are pretty cheap right now, provide a fun open-air experience, are a true sports car, and have vestigial back seats.

m2 / m4 (m4 comes in a drop top) probably an E9x to get into your price range.  

AMG C class (C63s is the new one, not sure how old/unreliable you have to go to get to 30/40k)

Audi S4/S5 convertible

Lexus RC F (again not sure if they are in your price range)

Evora (I don't think these are in the 30 or even 40k range)

Pontiac GTO 

Adrian_Thompson (Forum Supporter) said:

[...]for the same $30k we're talking for a new Frisbee you look to be in the range of a 2012 ish Boxster, an 08-09 ish Cayman, a nice 996 generation 911, or, and this is my personal outlier, the very best late XKR you can find.

Out of curiosity, what are peoples thoughts on cross shopping like this?

30k seems like a stretch for a nice 996, but it will buy you a nice XKR. If you want a sports car and need the backseats, I'd go Frisbee, if you want a GT then XKR seems like the answer. 

I started doing some reading on the XKR last week and it seems like an interesting platform. Lots of plusses, and the minuses seem to be the small backseats and the perceived lack of reliability. 

I'm just going to say the BRZ is not a GT car if that is how you want to lean. Think of it as what would have been the S16 Silvia and you are on the right path. It is reasonably comfortable for longer trips but not what I'd call luxurious. 880 mile trip in one didn't kill me.

It's still an inexpensive sports coupe in it's DNA and fit/finish. From a performance viewpoint it is the most modern version of the Front/Rear sports coupe but the fit and finish is nothing close to the 944. 

So I guess it's a question on what you want. If you want GT then Porsche is the route to go. If you want small sporty coupe, The twins are a good path. 

STM317 said:

S2000, MR2, Newer 4cyl Pony cars, Nissan Z and it's various Infiniti counterparts, Cadillac ATS, C5 ZO6, 2012-ish Boss 302 Mustang

This is a weird bunch of cars to cross shop? A 4klb V8 sedan against a 2800lb 4 cylinder  2 seater (I know it's technically a 4 seater but in practice)

I understand the original post, it just seems weird. 

Adrian_Thompson (Forum Supporter) said:

Out of curiosity, what are peoples thoughts on cross shopping like this.  While 'normal people' don't cross shop a new car with other 5-20 year old cars, enthusiasts do.

Well, take the 2022 VW GTI. IF I were in the market, everything that I have read says that the last gen had a much better interior and feel and that the new one has haptic controls that SUCK, yet the new gen has more power and handling. With used car prices almost even with used, it would be a conundrum. 

dps214 said:

Pete. (l33t FS) said:

In reply to dps214 :

There's a lot of area under the curve, it is just a very tall, narrow area 

Lazy turbos that hit hard when they do wake up make it seem like there is a lot more than there really is.

Oh yeah, it's definitenely an entertaining driving experience, just not anything like modern turbos that make peak torque basically off idle and carry it most of the way through the rpm range.

I really liked the XR4Ti's power delivery on the street.  It was amusing and encouraged one to drive in a manner to keep the big lazy turbo on the boil.

On course... it sucked.

Horse apples and oranges, of course, but both had superficially similar specs, and were from the same era with respect to engine management and turbocharger matching/engine development.  And the 3000 to 5000 power strip is an apt assessment.

bmw88rider said:

It's still an inexpensive sports coupe in it's DNA and fit/finish. From a performance viewpoint it is the most modern version of the Front/Rear sports coupe but the fit and finish is nothing close to the 944. 

Gonna disagree there. The 944 had great fit/finish for it's era, but the whole industry has improved tremendously since then. For instance, both my 944s had panel gaps you could drive a Cayenne through, and cheap, fragile plastic parts abounded in the interiors. The modern Frisbees (and basically all modern cars) are light-years ahead of that.

I was cross shopping caymans, m3's, corvettes.  I bought a 2022 BRZ.

For the money its hard to beat, granted I have yet to drive one yet, but on paper it seems to offer s2000, e36 m3 or integra type r levels of performance in a package that is still analog and not 20 years old.

I go through this and then within 10 minutes come to this conclusion:

Semi boring street car with manual trans (Outback in my case) + Formula Car (F500 at the moment) = way better than any road car for less money.

It's really sad because I really do like 80s sports cars as well as the twins but never enough to give up my default.

In reply to Tom_Spangler (Forum Supporter) :

Even an iA has a waaay better interior than anything from the 80s.

In reply to Javelin :

A 911 will probably always be the gold standard to me.  The problem is prices have gone nuts, even given the times.  A few years ago a 996 turbo in 'B' condition was a $30k car.  Now people are asking $30k for a base 996 vert with auto.  Also with a 996 it's got the same interior (plus a couple of pup seats) as my 986, and as a road trip person it's pretty sucky.  While I would happily own either a single or double row IMS in an M96, I'm not touching a M97 with it's non replaceable without splitting the case IMS, which means I'd want a 9A1 car which start around $50k.  Now if they are $40k for a nice one in two years, then that's going to be hard to beat.

In reply to Adrian_Thompson (Forum Supporter) :

https://www.truecar.com/used-cars-for-sale/listing/WP0BA29992S635214/?referrer_id=autotempest

https://www.cars.com/vehicledetail/5e22e9e5-66b2-41d9-ba8c-2ac5e29c8bc1/?aff=atempest&CMP=atempest&utm_source=AutoTempest&utm_medium=TRP&utm_campaign=atempest

https://www.cars.com/vehicledetail/f67bff31-135c-46da-bd08-ab7490984915/?aff=atempest&CMP=atempest&utm_source=AutoTempest&utm_medium=TRP&utm_campaign=atempest

https://www.cars.com/vehicledetail/15d313bf-8297-4c62-941c-8072da4b8ae3/?aff=atempest&CMP=atempest&utm_source=AutoTempest&utm_medium=TRP&utm_campaign=atempest

Looks like you can get a pretty decent 996 Targa manual for $30Kish or less still.

z31maniac said:

STM317 said:

S2000, MR2, Newer 4cyl Pony cars, Nissan Z and it's various Infiniti counterparts, Cadillac ATS, C5 ZO6, 2012-ish Boss 302 Mustang

This is a weird bunch of cars to cross shop? A 4klb V8 sedan against a 2800lb 4 cylinder  2 seater (I know it's technically a 4 seater but in practice)

I understand the original post, it just seems weird. 

Yeah, it's admittedly broad. OP mentioned Frisbees, Boxsters, Caymans, 911s, (briefly the ND) and XKRs which seems like an equally weird mix to me, so I figured I'd throw out a bunch of vehicles that are known to be decent to drive, and available under $30k so OP might have more to think about, or perhaps refine the original list somewhat by eliminating similar cars.

Looking at the OPs list, you've got the new, cheap, light, 4 cylinders with RWD. You've got depreciated mid engined 2 seaters (even though OP later says that 2 seaters are a non starter). You've got rear engined 2+2s at or near the bottom of their curve. And then a 4K lb, front engine, RWD v8 car with an automatic that's larger and heavier than the pony cars that OP says are too big and heavy feeling.

To the OP, 

I have kind of been running a similar hypothetical in my head. I have a 2000 m coupe, that I really like, but will admit to being tempted to trade it for a new gr86 (and it's warranty). If money was no object, I'd be looking for a six cylinder cayman, but it is, so I'm not. 

Right now, I'm landing on keep the m coupe, it's got the look back factor for me (I know the Clown shoe isn't for everyone).