Next-gen Tesla Roadster announced: High-end supercar for low-end supercar money

There has never been a Tesla discussion on this site that didn't bring out a bunch of people trying to measure Tesla by their own standards. 

It doesn't work. Tesla has completely different targets than anyone seems to recognize. 

If you want to compare them to Mazda or GM (and THEIR standards of success), it's a fail. But it is a ridiculously narrow mindset if one tries to suggest Tesla (or Elon Musk) is unsuccessful. 

Measuring Tesla against today's automakers is like trying to measure Ford against buggy manufacturers in 1904. 

In reply to SVreX :

Yes and No.

Elon Musk is very good at making Elon Musk very very rich. I believe that is his goal.

tuna55 said:

https://www.caranddriver.com/features/tesla-model-s-p85d-at-lightning-lap-2016-feature

 

way way less than one lap

 

The dude drumming along to the steering wheel would have been better if he had picked a better song

And what was the target market for the model S - track day car? Nope! Big heavy luxury sedan with good acceleration for the street. Judging the "Supercar" model by the luxury car model is as silly as it would be for any other maker. How does an ls600lh do on track? Poorly? Then the LFA must be a terrible car on track right?

tuna55 said:

In reply to SVreX :

Yes and No.

 

Elon Musk is very good at making Elon Musk very very rich. I believe that is his goal.

Elon Musk has forced every other manufacturer in the world to begin taking seriously the future he envisions. 

He's a game changer. With a very small market share. Which also makes him wealthy. 

That makes him worth taking seriously. 

In reply to dculberson :

You know why your comment is absurd, I don't need to type it out.

Internal combustion engine cars are now officially what mechanical, manual wind wristwatches are to quartz watches. 

Soon there will be no objective reason to favor ICE cars; there only value will be in their aesthetic/novelty value as an ingenious complex system of whirring gears, valves, etc. 

SivaSuryaKshatriya said:

GameboyRMH said:

This thing is going to be the darling of supercar track days, with near-zero powertrain maintenance and feeding costs, and a relatively low up-front cost. Hopefully that industry won't shut down before the release date, so that I might get to drive one!

I wouldn't be so sure. The Model S suffered from over-heating on the track, and after only a few laps the car would go into limp mode. Let's see if they fixed the over-heating issues with this Roadster - if they haven't, it's just a fun street toy.

As was said on another forum:

"The Tesla Model S trackability has to do with the fact that the battery and electrical systems are not designed for sustained full power usage. If they want to make a track pack for the Roadster, they could do so. Sort of a 1LE option for the Roadster, it would have to include additional cooling capacity for the required systems probably a couple new or larger radiators and perhaps enlarged cooling pumps, and probably putting the car in track mode that would limit the maximum output to an appropriate level. There's plenty of applications where electrics run flat out for long periods of time. All it takes is sufficient cooling capacity."

As far as I'm concerned, requiring street cars to be trackable is folly. Either build a dedicated track car or buy a real race car. streetable cars that also offer excellent track ability are inherently poor compromises. Look at the cooling issues of the latest Z06 on the track. And that's a track focused car from a major manufacturer with massive research and development funding and time.

tuna55 said:

In reply to dculberson :

You know why your comment is absurd, I don't need to type it out.

I honestly don't. I'm sincere and am confused as to why you don't think so. 

In reply to dculberson :

I look forward to seeing the new Roadster at Lightning Lap.

First, judging one entity by another unrelated entity's history rather than its own is pretty much the definition of an apples-to-oranges comparison. 

 Measuring Tesla against today's automakers is like trying to measure Ford against buggy manufacturers in 1904. 

I agree with both of you.  

How does an ls600lh do on track? Poorly? Then the LFA must be a terrible car on track right?

I wish i knew!! A small spate of them came up for sale locally and I meant to go drive one, but then they all sold and I havent seen any locally since. Judging by my GS450h experience, though (same hybrid bits), i would say the answer is 'poorly'.  At least the hybrids only lose ~40-50 hp when the batteries drain, though.  

Chris_V said:

SivaSuryaKshatriya said:

GameboyRMH said:

This thing is going to be the darling of supercar track days, with near-zero powertrain maintenance and feeding costs, and a relatively low up-front cost. Hopefully that industry won't shut down before the release date, so that I might get to drive one!

I wouldn't be so sure. The Model S suffered from over-heating on the track, and after only a few laps the car would go into limp mode. Let's see if they fixed the over-heating issues with this Roadster - if they haven't, it's just a fun street toy.

As was said on another forum:

"The Tesla Model S trackability has to do with the fact that the battery and electrical systems are not designed for sustained full power usage. If they want to make a track pack for the Roadster, they could do so. Sort of a 1LE option for the Roadster, it would have to include additional cooling capacity for the required systems probably a couple new or larger radiators and perhaps enlarged cooling pumps, and probably putting the car in track mode that would limit the maximum output to an appropriate level. There's plenty of applications where electrics run flat out for long periods of time. All it takes is sufficient cooling capacity."

As far as I'm concerned, requiring street cars to be trackable is folly. Either build a dedicated track car or buy a real race car. streetable cars that also offer excellent track ability are inherently poor compromises. Look at the cooling issues of the latest Z06 on the track. And that's a track focused car from a major manufacturer with massive research and development funding and time.

No matter what is accomplished, haters are gonna hate!

I'm love Tesla cars and hopefully I can get me a overloaded model X. Everyone knocks them and Elon, but all the owners of their products that I personally know love their cars and try to get everyone on board. It's funny when people compare a concept to actual production not being 100% the same. Um duh. But, hell tesla has gotten a lot closer to their concept specs in their cars than what's expected AND they're groundbreaking.

A model S on the track, well it simply isn't designed for that. I for one wouldn't try tracking one except drag racing. This car this thread about is about hyper-car performance. It's not designed to be a luxury family mobile. 

Y'all keep hating and I'll keep geeking 

yupididit said:

Chris_V said:

SivaSuryaKshatriya said:

GameboyRMH said:

This thing is going to be the darling of supercar track days, with near-zero powertrain maintenance and feeding costs, and a relatively low up-front cost. Hopefully that industry won't shut down before the release date, so that I might get to drive one!

I wouldn't be so sure. The Model S suffered from over-heating on the track, and after only a few laps the car would go into limp mode. Let's see if they fixed the over-heating issues with this Roadster - if they haven't, it's just a fun street toy.

As was said on another forum:

"The Tesla Model S trackability has to do with the fact that the battery and electrical systems are not designed for sustained full power usage. If they want to make a track pack for the Roadster, they could do so. Sort of a 1LE option for the Roadster, it would have to include additional cooling capacity for the required systems probably a couple new or larger radiators and perhaps enlarged cooling pumps, and probably putting the car in track mode that would limit the maximum output to an appropriate level. There's plenty of applications where electrics run flat out for long periods of time. All it takes is sufficient cooling capacity."

As far as I'm concerned, requiring street cars to be trackable is folly. Either build a dedicated track car or buy a real race car. streetable cars that also offer excellent track ability are inherently poor compromises. Look at the cooling issues of the latest Z06 on the track. And that's a track focused car from a major manufacturer with massive research and development funding and time.

No matter what is accomplished, haters are gonna hate!

I'm love Tesla cars and hopefully I can get me a overloaded model X. Everyone knocks them and Elon, but all the owners of their products that I personally know love their cars and try to get everyone on board. It's funny when people compare a concept to actual production not being 100% the same. Um duh. But, hell tesla has gotten a lot closer to their concept specs in their cars than what's expected AND they're groundbreaking.

A model S on the track, well it simply isn't designed for that. I for one wouldn't try tracking one except drag racing. This car this thread about is about hyper-car performance. It's not designed to be a luxury family mobile. 

Y'all keep hating and I'll keep geeking 

I'm not a hater - actually, the opposite. I've always been a strong supporter of Elon Musk and I highly respect his part as the catalyst to get the auto industry to make the transition to electric.

I strongly disagree about the "every owner loves their Tesla." They don't, at least in my experience. My good friend has a 2016 Model S, and he told me that many of the other Model S owners he's met are outwardly very excited about owning the car to non-Tesla owners, but privately amongst other Tesla owners are overall unhappy with the quality. His car already has the rubber trim on the mirrors falling out, and it also had some weird electrical issues where things would turn on and off while he was driving (fixed now).

But in the end we cheer for Tesla not because of their cars, per say, but rather the vision they are pursuing. When you buy a Tesla, you are buying into Musk's vision of the future - and that is something I ultimately support.

Anyhow, I believe this is all to be expected from a company that's brand new. Toyota used to be E36 M3, and so did Hyundai, and now Toyota is near the top of quality and Hyundai has made massive leaps and bounds.

dculberson said:

tuna55 said:

https://www.caranddriver.com/features/tesla-model-s-p85d-at-lightning-lap-2016-feature

 

way way less than one lap

 

The dude drumming along to the steering wheel would have been better if he had picked a better song

And what was the target market for the model S - track day car? Nope! Big heavy luxury sedan with good acceleration for the street. Judging the "Supercar" model by the luxury car model is as silly as it would be for any other maker. How does an ls600lh do on track? Poorly? Then the LFA must be a terrible car on track right?

That's an invalid comparison IMO. When we talk about the Model S and the Roadster, we're talking about battery technology - specifically, whether it can withstand the abuse of being pushed hard for long periods of time. The Model S overheated before it could even complete one Lightning lap, so I think it's a very reasonable to question how the far more powerful Roadster will do. Am I missing the point by questioning such things? I don't think so, as the answer to said question will also tell us where we're at with battery technology. And regarding your LS600LH vs. LFA comparison, well, we already know that combustion motors can withstand that abuse.

Anyway, all I was wondering was whether the technology exists right now to keep the batteries cool enough to be used on the track. As someone else mentioned, it's been shown to be possible with the correct cooling. I'm mostly so curious because I myself one day want a fully electric track car so I don't have to worry about oil leaks and pistons through the block.

Yes it's absolutely possible. The Tesla S has a pretty minimalistic cooling system with all components sharing heat with each other through an interlinked cooling system and a small set of radiators in the nose. This is good for looks, packaging, and keeping drag down, but it doesn't leave much cooling capacity to spare.

In reply to SivaSuryaKshatriya :

Your first argument is incorrect.  This is not an battery issue. Thus the propulsion system is irrelevant, and EV can very much still be compared to ICE. As you later note, it's really cooling issue.  Street ICE's produce and need to shed heat differently than street EV's. 

Street ICE cooling systems are substantially oversized for street at-speed use, due to stationary cooling requirements.  Hence the 'active' shutters that will close at highway speeds.  In reducing drag, they are also reducing airflow to the cooling system.  This is airfrlow that is entirely unnecessary.  Therefore, this inherent over sizing makes it easier for a street ICE vehicle to provide sufficient cooling for at least a brief time in a track environment. 

Street EV's are the opposite.  Their cooling systems are only designed to cool the vehicle at speed, since there is no major cooling requirement when the vehicle is stationary.  Thus there is far less overhead in the cooling system for track use. 

But just like elevated performance ICE's get upgraded radiators, intercoolers, engine oil coolers, and transmission oil coolers for track duty, so too should it be considered fair that an EV would need an appropriately upgraded cooling system as well. So much like and LFA comes with a more performance capable cooling system than an overpowered Lexus luxo-barge, I would expect the Tesla Roadster to have similar over the Model S.

Driven5 said:

In reply to SivaSuryaKshatriya :

Your first argument is incorrect.  This is not an battery issue. Thus the propulsion system is irrelevant, and EV can very much still be compared to ICE. As you later note, it's really cooling issue.  Street ICE's produce and need to shed heat differently than street EV's. 

Street ICE cooling systems are substantially oversized for street at-speed use, due to stationary cooling requirements.  Hence the 'active' shutters that will close at highway speeds.  In reducing drag, they are also reducing airflow to the cooling system.  This is airfrlow that is entirely unnecessary.  Therefore, this inherent over sizing makes it easier for a street ICE vehicle to provide sufficient cooling for at least a brief time in a track environment. 

Street EV's are the opposite.  Their cooling systems are only designed to cool the vehicle at speed, since there is no major cooling requirement when the vehicle is stationary.  Thus there is far less overhead in the cooling system for track use. 

But just like elevated performance ICE's get upgraded radiators, intercoolers, engine oil coolers, and transmission oil coolers for track duty, so too should it be considered fair that an EV would need an appropriately upgraded cooling system as well. So much like and LFA comes with a more performance capable cooling system than an overpowered Lexus luxo-barge, I would expect the Tesla Roadster to have similar over the Model S.

I should have clarified - I meant that it's an issue with cooling EV's versus gas motors, not the batteries themselves.

Anyhow, thanks for the response. I had not thought about it from the perspective of stationary vs. in-motion cooling needs for gas vs. EV.