Nitrous+4500rpm+4th gear+K20 equals....

Yup, stock rods with Wisecos/ARPs.

Swank Force One wrote:

bravenrace wrote: A coworker has a Teg GS-R with a bonafide 600+ HP on a stock block. He's been DD it for the past 3 years and drag racing it almost weekly in the summer.

Stock block but not a single stock internal, correct?

http://honda-tech.com/showthread.php?t=2036623

Scope it. Pretty nutty. I'm sure they're not that reliable, and many are blown up by now.

A coworker has a Teg GS-R with a bonafide 600+ HP on a stock block. He's been DD it for the past 3 years and drag racing it almost weekly in the summer.

Engines are most sensitive to detonation around their torque peak, which on a k20 out of vtec is probably right around 4500 rpm. You can make crazy HP on stock bottom end in a lot of cars as long as you dont make crazy torque at low rpms (which is way more likely to break stuff with detonation). Also, for the really high revving motors, they sort of become more detonation resistant the higher the rpm goes.

If you look at the highest hp on stock bottom end hondas, probably the highest HP ones are the highest revving ones, and none of them are hitting full boost below 5k rpms. This is an educated guess. There are honda motors that dont like 9000 rpm, and im guessing that although they may have good headflow and more displacement, they are not dynoing as high as the higher revving, slower spooling motors. Because what happens when you keep a 700hp turbo but keep putting bigger and bigger displacements under it? Eventually it will spool that 700 hp turbo before the engine's natural torque peak and then blow up halfway through the pull.

So the moral of the story is high cylinder pressures + low rpm = detonation = broken. You can have forged pistons and still shatter a rod, or pound out a bearing, or even bend/crack a crank with detonation. Or you could do that AND break forged pistons. lol

beans wrote: Yup, stock rods with Wisecos/ARPs.

Yeah but it wasn't built by honda. Human error factor.

fidelity101 wrote:

beans wrote: Yup, stock rods with Wisecos/ARPs.

Yeah but it wasn't built by honda. Human error factor.

this.

I've had better luck just boosting stock hondas with a well known tuner to retarded results with no problems.

I think the keyword to remember here is: Nitrous.

Also, those 'lower revving torque happy' Honda engines have some of the best flowing heads from the factory strapped to them. The VTEC F22B1/F23A1(4) heads outflow the 'better' F22A1-6 heads by a decent amount(especially on the exhaust side and at lower lift values), factory cast. The F22A1-6 can flow some serious numbers when ported. 300+ cfm is fairly common between both heads on the intake side when ported. The VTEC heads typically die out by 240/250cfm on the exhuast when ported, F22A1-6's can get another 20 or so CFM. Roller rockers are standard on the VTEC heads. Sucks the camshaft market pretty much sucks with them, really an under-loved platform. The F22B2 heads on the non-vtec 94-97's is pretty much crap.

fidelity101 wrote:

beans wrote: Yup, stock rods with Wisecos/ARPs.

Yeah but it wasn't built by honda. Human error factor.

How does human error during assembly result in a rod snapped in the middle? Improperly torqued rod bolts, sure, but that doesn't appear to be the case here.

Swank Force One wrote:

bravenrace wrote: A coworker has a Teg GS-R with a bonafide 600+ HP on a stock block. He's been DD it for the past 3 years and drag racing it almost weekly in the summer.

Stock block but not a single stock internal, correct?

I believe the crank is OEM, although worked on, but the pistons and rods are aftermarket. The problem with most amateur builds is that the AFR and timing isn't controlled well enough. Those two things are key to making boosted engines live, especially Hondas.

codrus wrote: How does human error during assembly result in a rod snapped in the middle? Improperly torqued rod bolts, sure, but that doesn't appear to be the case here.

Well, it wasn't assembled in Japan, therefore it's operator error.

Or something like that.

Well, it wasn't assembled in Japan, therefore it's operator error. Or something like that.

More like Honda didnt install a nitrous system that turns on at 4500 rpm.

You guys crack me up lol. After we tore it apart, found out it was rod/piston #1. Piston #2 is pretty shot, too. #1's chamber had a couple of contact areas that will need machined out, but the head is still useable. Electrode on #1's plug was completely gone. Finally convinced him to go 2.4L, so he picked up a K24A1 block yesterday. We're figuring that since it was a single nozzle system, the nitrous blew through the intake manifold too quickly(fresh bottle problems), and #1/2 got most of the juice, with 3&4 not getting much; probably wouldn't have happened if it was a direct port system. Car ran great with lower bottle pressure. Plans are for the new motor: Rods and pistons, direct port ALL THE NITROUS, swap over the head/everything else.

While you are probably right that it was PARTIALLY a distribution problem, i'd be concerned that if the distribution was even you'd go to 4 broken cyls, not 0, all else being equal.

Hopefully the extra displacement on the new build will give enough of a midrange bump that the owner won't feel the need to spray right at the torque peak and E36 M3 money all over the road.

A progressive controller would be good, too. Maybe a 30 shot in the midrange, going up to 100 at higher rpms?

Was it a single wet or dry?

probably had it tuned at hennessy honda of woodstock...

In reply to 4cylndrfury:

I heard they suck.

In reply to Paul_VR6:

Single wet.

In reply to Vigo:

Not a bad idea, I'll have to throw that at him and see what he says. Should EASILY make over 200lbft at 4000rpm now. #3/4 looked 100% normal, #1 is completely trashed, and #2 took some damage, too. #2's rod is a little bent.

With the amount of money he's putting into what is now 'multiple' k-series builds i would think a progressive controller is in the budget. Sounds like it is pretty close to being awesome besides the fact that it self-destructed, so hopefully the next build is 'safe' and then you can post some vids here...

I think I can scrummage up a video from the night before it nuked itself. It's only the second year it's been out, still 'working out the bugs' as he states. I doubt I'll be able to convince him to make a build thread, but I'll see if he'll let me post some info.

All makes sense. You couldnt pay me to tune over 100hp single wet on anything.

Paul_VR6 wrote: All makes sense. You couldnt pay me to tune over 100hp single wet on anything.

Why not? The repeat business would be incredible. You'd get to tune the same car five or six times before they gave up!

Lots of repeat from that one guy, no business from anyone one else knowing you as the tuner that tunes that guys car that keeps blowing up.