I just read this thread for the first time today. I found it odd that I saw a Camry wagon at Walmart this afternoon. Hadn't seen one in years. This would make a interesting build especially if you swapped in a 5 speed. Could be pretty cool. Of course, my wife thinks I'm a geek because I like wagons.
It was only a sportscar in comparison to the accord and camry, really. And back in the late 80s and early 90s that wasn't saying a whole hell of a lot.
I agree with your basic point.
But, i feel pretty strongly that the 2g maxima and 3g accord are underappreciated as enthusiast cars. Either one with a 5spd and a traction upgrade is vaguely entertaining and both have the suspension fundamentals to handle really well with a bit more effort. Also, both are very light by most standards.
Back when I first started reading GRM I was in college and my daily driver was a Saturn SL2. I was just about to begin blowing my meager earnings on mods when the car was totaled at a red light, and at my friends recommendation I replaced it with an E30 325is. Not that the Saturn would have been a pos after mods, but stepping up to the BMW literally changed my life.
David S. Wallens wrote: So, what's cooler, Camry or P71?
P71. Yes, I'm biased. 
And Camrys are much more common, especially beige ones. They're more likely to be what someone already owns.
David S. Wallens wrote: What about a Camry wagon?
Camry hatchback.
Ok, so do you look for a Camry stickshift or start with an automatic? Is the point that it's a Camry or that it's a beige appliance?
Per Schroeder wrote: Ok, so do you look for a Camry stickshift or start with an automatic? Is the point that it's a Camry or that it's a beige appliance?
The Camry seems to be especially hated here, to the point that nobody would LOOK for one... they just kindof... "happen."
So i think the point is that it's a Camry.
I'd look for a stickshift. There's enough of them out there.
On the other hand, starting with an auto would really "prove the point." You could use a Celica as a donor pretty easily.
nitro_alltrac wrote: I just read this thread for the first time today. I found it odd that I saw a Camry wagon at Walmart this afternoon. Hadn't seen one in years. This would make a interesting build especially if you swapped in a 5 speed. Could be pretty cool. Of course, my wife thinks I'm a geek because I like wagons.
Hey Nitro! How's the AllTrac doing?
Per Schroeder wrote: Ok, so do you look for a Camry stickshift or start with an automatic? Is the point that it's a Camry or that it's a beige appliance?
I'd probably start with an automatic as my view of this one is "Is a hand-me-down transportation appliance worth modifying?" And it would be rather unlikely that it would be a manual transmission in that scenario, at least to start with. This would be an extra challenge that you'd have to deal with.
MadScientistMatt wrote: I'd probably start with an automatic as my view of this one is "Is a hand-me-down transportation appliance worth modifying?" And it would be rather unlikely that it would be a manual transmission in that scenario, at least to start with. This would be an extra challenge that you'd have to deal with.
That would be an interesting experiment.
All of these statements are possible ways a car guy can be stuck with a commuting appliance being his only outlet for motorsports.
I would find it interesting to see how you could modify an auto-tragic jap car for various motoring pursuits. The car would be the equivalent of a UJM, Universal japanese motorcycle. Meaning it's plentiful, cheap, and readily available. How would this car far at a track day at VIR for example? How would it place in an autocross? Could you hop it up enough to have fun at a drag strip "street night"? Don't laugh. I've seen some strange winners in drag bracket racing. Cars as unlikely as a 225 slant 6 Valiant and an early 90's EXP. Then, what modifications would make it more fun in these applications? Maybe a track oriented suspension for VIR? Same but stickier tires for an autocross? Some "NAAASSS!" for bracket racing assuming the meager autobox could handle it...
I vote for the beige appliance. I wouldn't be quite so picky about the actual car (Camry, Altima, etc.) The extra challenge of the automatic appeals to me - not because of my P71 (I've already figured out to drop it into 1 for nearly perfect autocross shifting 
) but because my first autocross car was a 95 Mercury Tracer automatic. It's what I had at the time I discovered autocross, so that's what I ran. I'm thinking back to what sorts of tricks and such I would've found useful eleventy years ago when I first started, and before I picked up a BMW 320i for autocross.
MadScientistMatt wrote:Per Schroeder wrote: Ok, so do you look for a Camry stickshift or start with an automatic? Is the point that it's a Camry or that it's a beige appliance?I'd probably start with an automatic as my view of this one is "Is a hand-me-down transportation appliance worth modifying?" And it would be rather unlikely that it would be a manual transmission in that scenario, at least to start with. This would be an extra challenge that you'd have to deal with.
I like this idea the best. But, I think we all forget that it can still be a beige appliance regardless if it had an auto or a stick. A manual trans can make things more interesting for sure, but there are some really gutless appliances with manuals.
On a different note, I used to have a AE92 Corolla wagon that had a 3-speed auto and when I got bored with it, I started manually shifting it. It made things more fun, but the day I drove my wife's friends AE92 manual Sedan (with fuel injection), it was a night and day difference. From then on I wanted to find another wagon and swap a manual into it. (Most wagons had autos).
I would be interested in an start with an auto/swap to a manual article, but I also like the idea of a "Let's see what we can do with an automatic beige appliance" type of article too.
Honestly, ive gotten pretty grouchy over the years ive been on car forums.. Case in point:
Used to be i would entertain people's delusions about modding up a low-power automatic car.
Now i dont. I just tell people "swap manual first or you're basically an idiot." Sometimes i'm nicer than that, but that's basically what it boils down to. The smaller the motor, the more automatic hurts, and the better a 5spd swap is. You can realistically drop 2-3 seconds off the 1/4 mile time of a low-power n/a 4cylinder car with JUST the 5spd swap. There pretty much isnt any cost-competitive way to gain that much power (or mpg, or control, or fun factor) from any other mod that doesnt involve boost. Im talking in drag racing terms because that's the common frame of reference, but that amount of acceleration difference can make a major difference in autocross too, and there's something to be said for engine braking when autocrossing a front-heavy FWD, too.
So if i were talking to a prospective enthusiast, i would recommend the swap first. BUT, the flip side of that is once you do a 5spd swap, you're pretty much halfway or better to undoing the underdog/appliance factor of something like a 4cyl camry, and realistically the kind of people who feel 'stuck' with a 4cyl/automatic camry would probably use the same sort of self-defeating thinking to talk themselves into not believing they could pull off a manual swap anyway.
I'm way more interested in the "x boring car + x dollars VS same total money in an enthusiast car" aspect than i am in the potential "help the car enthusiast set bottom feeders mod their automatic camry" aspect that could play out.. lol
White_and_Nerdy wrote:David S. Wallens wrote: So, what's cooler, Camry or P71?P71. Yes, I'm biased.David S. Wallens wrote: What about a Camry wagon?Camry hatchback.
When I was in high school, my dad was the GM for a Toyota dealer and on of the cars he has was an 85 Camry 5 door turbo-diesel with a manual. That was a cool car.
I think a Maxima is going to be good right off the bat (unless it's a 3rd gen with the VG, they are gutless and slow, but anything from an SE 3rd gen right on up through 5.5 gen), and especially a 4th gen will destroy a Camry from the same era. I own a Maxima, so I would love to see this in an article, but I think the Camry appliance article would be very entertaining to read. Whether it is a "I got this car free from my grandma" situation, or a "basic mods for your boring grocery-getter" situation, I like them both! If you just pick the Camry for this article, then you can get a 4th gen Maxima on the side and do a proper project car feature! 
Or just to be mean, mod out the camry and then whip it all up and down a track, any track, with a stock 4th gen 5spd maxima. Lol
Vigo wrote: Or just to be mean, mod out the camry and then whip it all up and down a track, any track, with a stock 4th gen 5spd maxima. Lol
Give me the Camry and the budget and i will guarantee that won't happen. 
It's pointless. A Car-Guy would sell his hand me down appliance and buy an equivalent enthusiast car--any enthusiast car. No one is forced to hang on to their mom's Camry. So this is really an article for Guys-With-Cars. And Guys-With-Cars don't hang around. They don't give a flying turd about camber or CG height.
In any serious hobby--cars, guitars, there are those who commit and those who fake it and bail.
^^^ Wet blanket.
Steve Chryssos wrote: It's pointless. A Car-Guy would sell his hand me down appliance and buy an equivalent enthusiast car--any enthusiast car. No one is forced to hang on to their mom's Camry. So this is really an article for Guys-With-Cars. And Guys-With-Cars don't hang around. They don't give a flying turd about camber or CG height. In any serious hobby--cars, guitars, there are those who commit and those who fake it and bail.
At an autocross, I saw a 17-year-old kid in his mom's hand-me-down Corolla automatic beat his auto shop class teacher in a buddy's caged Fiero track car. It was the kid's first autocross, too.
The kid had already put some wheels on the car. I have no doubt he continued to autocross that automatic appliance as long as he could—I find it unlikely he could've afforded to trade up. A set of springs is $200. You'll pay that just for title and plates on your trade-up car, nevermind the premium to buy it.
Plenty of people make do with what they have because trading up is either too expensive or impractical. I've seen a Ford Escort sedan automatic (that's the 2.0 SPI engine, not even the Zetec) autocrossing. The car was lowered and had an exhaust put in.
I'll be damned if they're not car guys. That's how you get started. Eventually you learn how to optimize things like roll centers and camber and choose the best tire. But just because they're competing in an appliance doesn't mean they don't care about optimizing its performance.
That crazy diesel Benzo wagon that had you seizing a couple of weeks ago is far more interesting platform -- As is a slant six Valiant or some of the other underdog cars mentioned in this thread.
When you're done hot rodding a Camry, all you will have is a hot rod Camry.
Oh Snap! Staff Fight!!
I know GRM isn't really into drag racing, but could you maybe get an automatic V6, add a trans cooler and a direct port nitrous kit, and see how much fun you can have?
92CelicaHalfTrac wrote:Vigo wrote: Or just to be mean, mod out the camry and then whip it all up and down a track, any track, with a stock 4th gen 5spd maxima. LolGive me the Camry and the budget and i will guarantee that won't happen.
Yeah, the performance difference stock isn't large enough that the Camry couldn't be the faster of the two with minor mods.
last gen nissan stanza v6 and a 5spd. hard to find but when u do dirt cheap. and the camry versus maxima comparison stock vs stock ya the max is faster han dles better ect. but once u mod them its equal completely. very similar wieghts. power. geometry on the suspension is similar.
Steve Chryssos wrote: That crazy diesel Benzo wagon that had you seizing a couple of weeks ago is far more interesting platform -- As is a slant six Valiant or some of the other underdog cars mentioned in this thread. When you're done hot rodding a Camry, all you will have is a hot rod Camry.
Plenty of people just work with what they have, and in the end are proud of their unexpected, go-fast oddball. You know, when all you have to work with is a '60s muscle car with weak structures and bad geometry, you do the best you can and start replacing subframes. Just sayin'. :P
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