Opening a can of worms - FWD vs RWD

So, as always with all of us, I'm constantly on the lookout for new cars. Now, I've always been solid in the RWD camp. I grew up in the snow, and HATE how FWD reacts on slick surfaces (Corner entry understeer? Corner exit oversteer? Mid-straightaway 360? Roll the dice, 'cause you never know! ). I love nothing more than a good bit of controlled oversteer, and I FWD's just not gonna do that. Heck, I'm most comfortable autocrossing if my rear tires have just a hair bit of lateral slide going on.

However, I keep seeing cool FWD cars pop up, and I'm wondering if I'm missing out on something. Cooper Ss, Neons, Integras, Cobalt SSs, MS3s, Civics... all cars that I think would be worth owning... but I just don't know how long I'd be happy with a car that I can't pitch into a corner and have the ass end step out ever so slightly.

I guess what I'm looking for here is either the pat on the back of "you're absolutely right, FWD does suck, you're a moron for even thinking about going to FailWD", or the kick in the ass of "You just had the wrong FWDs, buy X and you'll never look back"

I used to get plenty of oversteer with my CRX. It's all in how you set it up. Yes, it's not the same, but you CAN make a FWD not plow helplessly. It's torque steer that drives me nuts, although many of the more modern FWD vehicles have done a good job of tuning that out. And as far as the snow, I grew up in the snow belt of Ohio myself. I think your problem is that you never learned to properly operate the parking brake.

i've had fun in both kinds of cars. for street driving, it shouldn't matter too much...unless you're that guy who is hanging the tail out on the street. if you're hitting the handling limits of a car like an MS3 on a public street, well. most people that complain about FWD handling on the street seem to think they're Fangio or something on their way to the 7-11.

look at the car and the intended usage. there are FWDs that will handle rings around some RWDs, and vice versa. what are your priorities?

for autoXing, i prefer RWD. never liked autoXing AWD cars, and FWD was fun until i got into a RWD car.

for track racing, i've had a lot of fun in both RWD (supercharged MR2) and FWD (FX16), and less fun in AWD (Audi 90 Quattro).

for regular year-round street driving, it makes little difference to me, but all things considered i would probably go AWD.

I don't have any problem getting my GTi to rotate in the snow, left foot braking is where it's at in winter. For the most part you just need to be very aware of weight transfer in fwd snow shenanigans. Standing on the throttle mid-corner makes understeer, lifting or trail braking makes oversteer.

My old neon would rotate any time I lifted the throttle in a corner. There are some great FWD cars.
It was a hoot.

I like FWD. A properly setup FWD is a joy to drive and will do exactly what you want, no stings attached. I can oversteer with throttle lift. I can kill the oversteer with a little right foot. I've even found time that a bit of front wheel spin will allow me to widen out a turn a bit but allow me to maintain the cars attitude in the corner.

I find a properly setup FWD is more straight forward to drive then a RWD. Excess throttle will not send you into a spin. I think because of this it is easier and suggested to setup a FWD more aggressively than you would a RWD. You can nearly always catch it by adding throttle.

With a FWD, You are fighting physics to lay down the power, but at the power levels most competitive sporty FWDs are at it really isn't a concern.

I've never been very good with FWD cars on track, as I prefer to use the throttle to move it around as well as the steering wheel, but there are some good ones out there. My favorite by far was the last of the Celicas. I drove a friend's SSC car a few years ago for a couple of events and it was definitely a car that could be throttle driven.

By contrast, as much as I love MINIs, they had a horrible push on track that drove me crazy. I could never tune it out.

It all comes down to personal preference though, and different people like different feels from their cars. You have to find one you like or be able to adapt.

It seems like the RWD as a slight advantage because the weight transfers to the driving wheels under acceleration. I can imagine this is going to make a huge difference in drag racing but I don't know about anything else.

In my experience, absolutely the worst cars to drive in snow have had the engine on the end opposite the drive wheels. Both rear-engine, RWD and front-engine, FWD cars get good traction and are easy to control.

That said, I prefer a front-engine, RWD layout. And it never (well, rarely) snows around here.

If you change platforms (RWD to FWD & vice versa) you'll suck on at the limit driving. You're feet and hands get hardwired to one reaction pattern and now you need another. As long as you're concentrating you can compensate but the minute your mind wanders you react the wrong way.

When I'm driving a FWD car I have to chant at every corner. Slow in Fast out, slow in fast out

1988RedT2 wrote: In my experience, absolutely the worst cars to drive in snow have had the engine on the end opposite the drive wheels.

Best snow car I ever had was my '84 Corolla SR5 (AE86). Skinny tires + 50/50 weight balance + RWD made it actually go where it was pointed, every time.

I understand the physics of why FF is supposedly better on snow, more weight on the drive wheels provides better traction, but I can get the same thing from a rwd by throwing a bag of concrete in my trunk.

I think the hardwired bit hit it home - my at-limit driving is based on RWD. More throttle to get more rotation. Trying to get my foot to do the inverse would be odd.

My Celica oversteers pretty hard if provoked. And not just with throttle lift.

You're coming out of a corner too fast, got your gas pedal mashed to the floor? It'll oversteer, and scrub off enough speed to keep you safely in the right direction without even thinking of understeering. It's perfect for masking my E36 M3ty driving.

As someone else already said, it's really all in how it's set up.

Biggest difference in controlling oversteer between FWD and RWD.

With FWD, put your foot to the floor to pull the car straight while turning into the slide. Coupled with left-foot braking to induce the lateral slide will allow you to keep your foot on the gas makes the fun happen with FWD.

With RWD, you try not to change the position of your foot.

Either way, look as far ahead as you can and where you want to go and you'll be able to control the spin.

I agree totally in the snow. Folks, it isn't about rotating the car in the snow, it's about going whilst turning in the snow. If you've taken a given pair of tires past the confines of the traction circle in one direction, they can't help in the other. On the other hand, if you're slipping and sliding like crazy with RWD you can still steer. I don't have any actual knowledge about non snow comparisons, though, sorry.

As always, biggest difference in the snow (like everywhere else, really) is the tires. Crap tires on an otherwise good car is crap. Good tires on an otherwise crap car is usually still good.

MY SVT Contour was one of the best handling FWD cars I've ever driven on or off the track. Until it snowed. I'd rather drive a 911 sideways in the rain at speed than drive that car in the snow on stock street tires at anything over a walking pace. My '70 Mustang autocross car was the same horrible snow car. In both cases, real winter tires changed the character of the cars.

Before I bought my RX-8 I looked into a Cobalt SS (turbo) because of its rave reviews and capability for incredible lap times. I hadn't been able to drive my RX-7 Turbo II (~280-300hp) for a while (nuked engine) and to be honest I thought the Cobalt SS was great. Immediately after the SS, I got into my friend's Solstice GXP and realized how much I'd been missing. There's just something about the poise of a RWD car. Even if you're not being a maniac, there is something about how the rear of the car feels when getting on the throttle coming out of a corner. Then I drove an RX-8 and loved the grace of the handling and the feeling of control. There are plenty of FWD cars which are faster on a road course and pretty similar in autoX, but I enjoy my RWD car far more than I would a FWD car.

Mini Coopers all had incredible torque steer. Some of us used to back the drum brake adjusters right out when we autocrossed; you would be amazed at how quickly the rear end would come around.

but I just don't know how long I'd be happy with a car that I can't pitch into a corner and have the ass end step out ever so slightly.

As said before, it's just a different animal. I can make my bone stock integra rotate easily with a couple extra pounds of pressure in the tires and a little trail braking.

The s00p3rturd actually oversteers WAY too much, and probably has a little too much spring in the rear.

As far as the whole FWD vs. RWD battle goes, to each his own. I've never driven a RWD car that I felt would do exactly what I told it, predictably, all the time (okay, I take that back. I got that impression from an Elise, but I'll more than likely never own one.) I've had a couple FWD autocross cars that were just insanely easy to drive...and mopped up on plenty of ASP Z06's, CSP miatas, etc, etc, etc.

Maybe a lot of it has to do with what you grew up with/what you're 'comfortable' with. Though I've driven plenty of RWD cars, I've only owned a couple.

poopshovel wrote: As far as the whole FWD vs. RWD battle goes, to each his own. I've never driven a RWD car that I felt would do exactly what I told it, predictably, all the time (okay, I take that back. I got that impression from an Elise, but I'll more than likely never own one.) I've had a couple FWD autocross cars that were just insanely easy to drive...and mopped up on plenty of ASP Z06's, CSP miatas, etc, etc, etc.

Well said, I've had the same experience. I'll can't afford an Elise either. I've found it is easier to drive a well setup FWD car fast and stay out of trouble than it is to drive an Elise fast.

But frankly, I wouldn't pay any attention to my comments. I bent my SVT Focus....... of all things, I SPUN!

As with statisitics... anything is possible but I know of.....

1) NO supercar that is fwd

2) NO F1 car that is fwd

3) NO Top Fuel car that is fwd

4) NO Funny Car that is fwd

5) No Indy car that is fwd

Please tell me how many recognized professional racing series are dominated by fwd???

oldeskewltoy wrote: As with statisitics... anything is possible but I know of..... 1) NO supercar that is fwd 2) NO F1 car that is fwd 3) NO Top Fuel car that is fwd 4) NO Funny Car that is fwd 5) No Indy car that is fwd Please tell me how many recognized professional racing series are dominated by fwd???

You haven't paid much attention to "production-based" professional series.

Try again!

There used to be FWD Indy cars....

I believe there actually has been a couple FWD F1 cars in the past.

BTCC and World Challenge are full of FWD cars...

My CRX is more than happy to hang the tail out, so much so that it took me a while just to get used to it. It's very neutral on the limits and a little throttle modulation can either tighten or loosen the line, it's great.

You just have to set the car up right. For me that means no front sway, a 22mm rear sway and 400lb springs all around. I set my AGX's to 3 in the rear and 1 in the front.

I've owned and driven RWD/FWD cars.

I think this debate is akin to ABS/TC/VDC/etc. You're only a man if you can drive without the nannies, etc. Not that I believe that, I just find that many people seem to hold that opinion. I'm never going to be Schumi, Looo-esseeee Hameeelton, Hans Stuck, Walter Rohrl or Sebastien Loeb, so who cares if I can't make it around the track .5 seconds a lap faster without the ABS.

FWD seems marginally easier to drive quickly, does that make me a nancy/crappy driver/etc? Maybe, but I want to have fun, not be a pro.

It's insane to watch what a properly setup CRX/Mini Cooper S will do out at Hallett.