shadetree30 wrote:kreb wrote:If you look at the thread title quickly...shadetree30 wrote: Am I the only one who was scared that some government entity was trying to make vintage racing illegal?Where did that come from? My first response is to figure you for a tin-foil-hat-wearer, but then there's the smiley face?
D'oh! Not exactly the considered response on my part.
Guys, I heard some chatter about our Outlaw Vintage Class being discussed here so I thought I'd chime in. We have been running this class in the NASA-SE region for a few years now with quite an eclectic mix of cars in our 4 classes. Everything from an LS7 powered Datsun 240Z to an inline 6 AMC. We've had 60's Mustangs, Firebirds and 911's and we'd welcome any 30+ year old car. The pwr-wt equals out the classes but unlike period correct we also allow most any modification and use bump rules to keep the classes equal. With 4 classes currently we can match most any car to a class.
If you'd like this type Vintage Race class in your region contact your regional director and let them know. We'd like to take the class National.
Gordon,
Vintage Class director NASA-SE
I just got an email back from Dave Royce of NASA Midwest/Great Lakes. Sounds like he's receptive to an OV class in those regions, so if you're interested, email him and let your voice be heard! Seriously, this is a really exciting prospect and a very interesting class. It would be awesome to see it at the Nationals.
Talk to Dave Royce at dave@nasamidwest.com and tell him GRM sent you.
alex wrote: Oh man, I think my dad's '60 Catalina (former circle tracker, caged/tubular front subframe) just found a class to race in!
Got pics you'll share? (I love '60 Pontiacs - Widetracks Rule!)
shadetree30 wrote:kreb wrote:If you look at the thread title quickly...shadetree30 wrote: Am I the only one who was scared that some government entity was trying to make vintage racing illegal?Where did that come from? My first response is to figure you for a tin-foil-hat-wearer, but then there's the smiley face?
Yep, Made me look 
would be cool if 30 years was the cut off instead of pre-79.
The first thing I thought when I saw this thread was that people were racing vintage Outlaw sprint cars. I wasn't all that interested (all my dirt-racing friends drive Late Models or Midgets, and modern ones at that). Then this evening, it suddenly occurred to me that someone might be trying to outlaw Vintage Racing, presumably on safety grounds. So I finally clicked.
I am delighted to find that neither of my assumptions about this thread was correct. Looks like fun. Wish I still had my 70's Fiat Spider.
They made the Fox ineligible on purpose, 1979 dammit.
Would have been a great place to campaign the $2012 challenger.
Keeping in mind that SVRA had a rule on the books through 2005, that for cars in Group 6 (where my Dart would run with them), all cars had to have an existing race history prior to 12/31/1972. The 1979 cut-off seems resonable. Otherwise you could eventually end up with a modded C6-ZO6 racing in the same class with a '65 Mustang. Also, modifications notwithstanding, it will keep the look of the races "vintage", rather than "used car lot".
One of the reasons I bought my Dart in '04 was because SVRA had an exception in their rule for under represented marques... Of course that rule went away after the '05 pile-up at Road America. 
aussiesmg wrote: They made the Fox ineligible on purpose, 1979 dammit. Would have been a great place to campaign the $2012 challenger.
Fox bodies are allowed in Outlaw Vintage. Any 30 year or older car is eligable. We even allow homologating if the body chassis has a run beyond 30 years, like the Fox and 3rd gen F, so long as the car has the 30 year appearance, which is usually just a bumper facia or similar.
Since our classes are pwr-wt whatever engine changes happened along the way are a moot point. We do not allow ABS though, if your car has ABS it results in a bump to the next class whether it works or not. We have several bump rules to keep the competition as equal as possible.
The Outlaw Vintage class is not supposed to be period correct, or for very old cars only. 30 years was decided to be a rolling cut off point so as race cars get outdated they still have a competitive class to run in. An example would be a 1979 Fox Mustang having to run against a 2012 Mustang. My 1968 Firebird is competitive against Fox Mustangs, but not 2012 Mustangs.
Performance suspension and brake parts are available for most Vintage cars 30 years and older, which allows you to be competitive against most anything, and our rules allow you to do the modifications required to be competitive, unlike period correct rules. And lets face it, a lot of guys just want to modify their cars, period correct is very strict on what you can do, we want you to be able to build the car you want to race, not what the scrutineer wants.
Here's the link to our website with our rules. http://outlaw-vintage-racing.com/
A year and a half till E30's are eligible. Maybe I'll start planning a parts swap from my ratty M3... 
Great idea. Maybe a good place to run my 5.0 TVR.
Edit - Scratch that. Engine and chassis must be from same manufacturer.
" Competitors may use any brand of dyno for certification."
I don't know about you guys, but I've seen some pretty big differences between dyno types, brands and test methods.
bravenrace wrote: Great idea. Maybe a good place to run my 5.0 TVR. Edit - Scratch that. Engine and chassis must be from same manufacturer.
Engine and trans do not have to be from the same manufacturer. It does to stay in the proper pwr-wt class, but any engine is eligable.
For instance, If your car would be in V3 based on all rules and pwr-wt, the 5.0 engine would just put you in V2. But, then you can do whatever you want using the other bump rules. Wider wheels, slicks, Wing, etc... so long as you maintain the V3 pwr-wt, this evens you out with the V2 cars you're running against. Since they have V2 pwr-wt, they cannot use the wider wheels, slicks, etc... without getting bumped into V1
In reply to Vintage_racer:
Let me ask you this - TVR used Ford V-8's in production cars prior to and after my car was produced, but they never used them in my model. Does that qualify as using the same manufacturer's engine?
bravenrace wrote: In reply to Vintage_racer: Let me ask you this - TVR used Ford V-8's in production cars prior to and after my car was produced, but they never used them in my model. Does that qualify as using the same manufacturer's engine?
I don't know much about the TVR, but take the TR8 for example, which came with I think a Buick engine, so any GM engine would be legal in it.
So, if the TVR came with a Ford engine in a production model then it's legal with any Ford engine. A lot of english cars outsourced the engines, as long as the factory supplied a particular car with a certain make at some point it's ok. I think some Jags came with Ford engines as well. Doesn't mean you can put a 351 in an XKE and stay in class, the Ford engine was never offered in those models.
The engine swap rule is mainly there for someone taking the easy way out and sticking in a crate engine, like an LS1, into say a Datsun 240Z. An easy swap but hardly fair to the guy that built an original Nissan L6 into a race contender in the same class. We are a Vintage class after all, and we like to see cars built using factory engines, even if they are newer versions. But we also like innovative racing hotrodding, and engine swaps are #1 on the list of what racers do, so we do allow and welcome it.
Well I was excited there for a minute, but now I'm not sure.
The 289/302 Ford was offered in a couple different TVR models from the factory, but never in a 2500M, which is what I have. So based on what you said about the XKE, my TVR wouldn't be eligible because that particular model never came with the SBF?
You've kind of picked an oddity of a car to work with as the TVR company used a lot of different engines. If that particular model never came with a Ford then by putting a SBF in it you'd just be in the next level class. You can run it though, no doubt.
Our rules also have exemption: Competitors wishing an exemption to the above list can contact the NASA-SE regional Director or Vintage Class Director. Upon issuance of exemption, a signed allowance must be attached to the log book.
Your regional class director (once we go National) would be able to make such an expemption if it's warranted. It's really not a big deal, any engine can be put in any car. Even if it bumps you up a class you'd probably will still be very competitive. You're going to have a pretty decent pwr-wt ratio as is.
In reply to Vintage_racer:
Yes, I would really just want to be in a class where I could be competitive.
mguar wrote: In reply to ScottRA21: Scott, Have you ever been to Monterrey Historics? Most of those cars are exactly as they were raced back in the day. well, except a great deal prettier.. MY MGTD and Black Jack special are as accurate as I can make them, right down to the correct date code on the engine.. When we throw those cars down the corkscrew on the absolute edge of traction, or dive inside another competitor on braking for a corner we are driving just as hard as we can.. Many of our cars race 5 or six times a year, more than when they were new.. Considering how rare some of those parts and pieces are it's likely more expensive/risky to Vintage race than to race professionally.
Sorry, was NOT meaning the people who actually race vintage cars. I was mostly commenting on the type of person who wants the lowest mile, perfectly pristine example of a car, still with the chalk marks on it...just so that it can sit in their garage so they can oogle it every night or whatever.
I just cannot understand that mentality.
I guess this sort of classification would be OK if it were just another vintage racing set up where having fun was rated above winning anything, but the minute you make it a real race, you are going to get all sorts of cheaters, which takes a lot of the fun out of it.
I can't see the dyno classification working well - anyone that really wants to win would just back their timing off or tell the dyno operator the red line was 1500-2000 below what they really use in a race. If the organizers had the right to kick faster cars up a class, that would help, especially because surprising number of 'cheaters' can't seem to restrain themselves from running away from the pack. If they were able to win by 1 second in a 30 minute race, no one would care....
Has anyone actually run under these rules? I'd love to hear how they work out.
If you read the rules they do that wspohn (bump cars I mean) and if you dont have a dyno they believe you have to use a transponder or something at the track or you can do that as an option
Not only can we use the traqmate to calculate hp, we always have scales at the track. We prefer racers get their cars dyno'd though, but for some it's not an option due to location.
To keep things honest, if someone has been running say, 1:45-1:47 lap times consistantly and all of a sudden you see something like a 1:40-1:42 out of them, we'll stick the traqmate in their car for the entire next race because something has changed or they've been sandbagging.
Vintage_racer wrote: To keep things honest, if someone has been running say, 1:45-1:47 lap times consistantly and all of a sudden you see something like a 1:40-1:42 out of them, we'll stick the traqmate in their car for the entire next race because something has changed or they've been sandbagging.
Which is why I said that the smart racers (why are there so few of them?) will win by 1 second at the chequered flag, not the length of the straight. The extra power 'in hand' need not result in a faster lap time either. It is sufficient if it allows one to pass a competitor in an area that you wouldn't normally be able to. Even making identical lap times, the added power would come in very useful to a canny racer.
I knew one guy that was setting up a car for an improved category and went racing in a more stock class while he did it to get more development time (I didn't agree with it because it spoiled the fun of the guys who were racing within the rules). He did exactly what I mentioned, using his power to put the pass on cars he'd never have been able to get by as easily if he'd been legal, yet putting in consistent lap times by slowing down a bit after he passed - sort of a time and speed rally situation on a track. That sort of guy you'd probably never catch, nor one that only improved a second a lap over his usual times - you'd put that down to learning the track.
Not saying everyone running that sort of classification would do that; probably very few would, but it opens it up to abuse that can be hard to catch (can you tell I was a scrutineer for some years?).
We measure the acceleration at several points on the track, if you're at WOT we'll know what your HP is. It's all GPS based, odd lap times just give us a general idea of who to look at though.
Not sure many people could or would try and walk that tight a line, but for some people anything is possible when it comes to winning.
For the most part the racers I've dealt with in NASA do their best to run legal.
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