Perfect Parts hauler/tow rig

http://www.straightstack.com/index.php?topic=395.0

"1966 GMC SWB 3.9 Litre Isuzu 4BD1 Diesel @ 105HP. Conversion was not a hack Job, still have V8 motor mounts if someone wanted to convert it back to gas. Stock 4spd trans, 3.08 rearend, 5-lug all around with Power Disc Brakes and Power-Steering, and the tires are like new. Truck is a driver, but never liscenced due to lost interest. Should get awesome MPG. Needs a bed-floor, E-Brake hooked up and some other little stuff. Email/PM/Reply with questions, worth a look it's in good shape. $2500 OBO OR TRADE FOR PRE-1970 Cabover Truck."

With a non turbo diesel and a 3.08 rear end and a 4 speed, it should be good for 25mpg and 5,000lbs of towing. It will be slow though.

A 5spd and better suspension will make it awesomes..

I wouldn't even paint it.

Please someone on here buy it.. PLEASE!

The poster is in Oregon, I assume the truck is also.

i bet that thing is a slug.. it might get good mpg unloaded, but keeping up with traffic might be an issue. add in any sort of a load- it's a truck, so it should be loaded often- and that cute little diesel won't be up to the job. remember, different does not always equal better.

that being said, that truck as a rolling chassis with no engine or trans is worth the asking price around here.

novaderrik wrote: i bet that thing is a slug.. it might get good mpg unloaded, but keeping up with traffic might be an issue. add in any sort of a load- it's a truck, so it should be loaded often- and that cute little diesel won't be up to the job. remember, different does not always equal better. that being said, that truck as a rolling chassis with no engine or trans is worth the asking price around here.

yawn.. Engine is good for ~100hp and ~190 lb-ft of torque. Pretty much on par with a stock 235 six, maybe slightly less powerful.

but lets not let facts like that get in the way of your thread crapping...

Now.. If you actually knew anything about diesels, you'd know what those engines go in, how hard they work, and that there great little turbo versions running around..

The other funny thing is.. that the "cute" little diesel is the same displacement as a 4b cummins... except the Isuzu will have better NVH in any vehicle.

but hey.. You're right.. I'm wrong. Thats a horrible truck and a stupid engine.

good truck, stupid engine choice. at least if the intention is to use it as a truck.

100hp and 190 lb ft isn't what i'd consider a lot of torque- the 2.5 iron Duke in the 87 Chev Celebrity puts out that much power and it barely moves that car around. i can't imagine it in a truck that weighs 1500 pounds more empty and has twice the frontal area..

do those engines come in trucks with 3.08 gears?

this isn't a turbo version- maybe a turbo version would make something useful for towing or hauling, but a decent 350 built for torque would drop right in and make double the torque of the engine that's in it right now. unloaded gas mileage might go down- but it's a truck, and trucks are made to be loaded.

of course, my idea of "hauling" and "loaded" might differ from most people here.. last summer, i had 4000+ pounds of scrap iron loaded into the back of my 87 GMC 3/4 ton truck 3-4 times a week and drove it like that 25 miles to the scrap yard. the 1971 307 that's in the truck (factory rated at 200hp and something like 250 lb ft of torque) is good enough to get it there eventually thanks to the granny gear 4 speed and 4.10 gears, but it works really really hard when the GVW gets up close to 10,000 pounds.

most of the cars i deal with weigh between 3000 and 4000 pounds, and they get hauled on trailers that weigh well over 2000 pounds empty.

novaderrik wrote: do those engines come in trucks with 3.08 gears?

nope.. A gear swap in that rig would be nice.

I don't want to argue with you, but you have some things to learn about 4 cylinder diesels. I suggest you go find a Brazilian F250 and tell me what engine is in it and how much power it makes.

also find out what a turbo would get you, bet ya less power than youre thinking..

any of your alternatives would half the fuel mileage though.

Sweet rig.

Realistically, you are only looking at roughly 20hp extra hp with a turbo (232tq) and 30hp (255tq) with turbo/intercooler on the 4BD1T/4BD2TC engines over the 4BD1 that is in that particular truck.

http://isuzudieselswapper.com/ <--- this guys sells an adapter kit to put these engines into chevy half tons. I really like the idea of a near 30mpg around town parts getter/home depot rig/light tow rig.

So.. Since I discovered this nice old truck and posted it here.. How long before someone steals it and posts it to Jalopnik/BaT/Justacarguy?

Y'all are missing the point...

That little Isuzu is a wrench and a turbine housing away from 400 hp/650 tq and still getting 30 mpg.

Ignorant wrote: http://isuzudieselswapper.com/ <--- this guys sells an adapter kit to put these engines into chevy half tons. I really like the idea of a near 30mpg around town parts getter/home depot rig/light tow rig. So.. Since I discovered this nice old truck and posted it here.. How long before someone steals it and posts it to Jalopnik/BaT/Justacarguy?

Thanks for the link. We were talking about that at work the other day, though I was thinking of putting it in a dually. Slow doesn't bother me, I drove a c-50 with a 6cyl/4 speed for years.

I had a '64 C-10 for about four years. I loved it, but the handling was scary. As a bonus, it had no seat belts and a nice soft metal dash.

Parts hauler? Yes.

Tow vehicle? No way.

curtis73 wrote: Y'all are missing the point... That little Isuzu is a wrench and a turbine housing away from 400 hp/650 tq and still getting 30 mpg.

250 hp is quite possible with good mileage and a turbo. 400 I'm not convinced without head work and pump work.

novaderrik wrote: good truck, stupid engine choice. at least if the intention is to use it as a truck. 100hp and 190 lb ft isn't what i'd consider a lot of torque- the 2.5 iron Duke in the 87 Chev Celebrity puts out that much power and it barely moves that car around. i can't imagine it in a truck that weighs 1500 pounds more empty and has twice the frontal area.. do those engines come in trucks with 3.08 gears? this isn't a turbo version- maybe a turbo version would make something useful for towing or hauling, but a decent 350 built for torque would drop right in and make double the torque of the engine that's in it right now. unloaded gas mileage might go down- but it's a truck, and trucks are made to be loaded.

I wouldn't think there is an iron duke on the planet that made 190 torques!

Joey

I think it's cool. Id love to have one of those engines, personally. Id either buy a dodge conversion van with a blown motor, or stick it into this dakota ive got sitting here.

As for the truck itself. looks decent.. But i have no particular love for old trucks. Love the motor though.

there is a 1995 NPR with the intercooled turbo diesel on the cleveland CL for $1500 obo with a broken pinion yoke.

engine, trans all in one, sell the box, and scrap the carcass and probably pay for your drivetrain. i do not have the cash or i would be there.

Ignorant wrote: http://isuzudieselswapper.com/

This might be the coolest thing I've seen all week. I'm giving this serious consideration for when my 305 gives up the ghost.

Ignorant wrote:

curtis73 wrote: Y'all are missing the point... That little Isuzu is a wrench and a turbine housing away from 400 hp/650 tq and still getting 30 mpg.

250 hp is quite possible with good mileage and a turbo. 400 I'm not convinced without head work and pump work.

The 4BD1 was offered in 181hp versions from the factory with nothing more than a different fuel pin in the pump.

I'm desperately trying to find the article I found... there were two trucks - one was a ranger with a 4BT (360 hp/600 tq) and a 4BD1 in an early bronco (400hp/600tq) and they put them side by side for some tests. Both got 30 mpg +

You have to remember that unless you're adding crazy amounts of fuel (and have tons of black bellows) you aren't really killing MPG. In fact, the timing adjustments you do first often increase MPG while adding as much as 20% hp and tq.

Since diesels are throttled by fuel, same driving style before and after (which is rarely the case) often yields same or better MPG.

how hard is it to put a 4bd2tc into something else? is it like a 12v cummins where you need a couple wires or are there computers involved?

Curtis73, Please find that article. That would be an awesome swap in any number of projects! Any more details on the turbine housing, etc. needed to get to those numbers?

curtis73 wrote: I'm desperately trying to find the article I found... there were two trucks - one was a ranger with a 4BT (360 hp/600 tq) and a 4BD1 in an early bronco (400hp/600tq) and they put them side by side for some tests. Both got 30 mpg + You have to remember that unless you're adding crazy amounts of fuel (and have tons of black bellows) you aren't really killing MPG. In fact, the timing adjustments you do first often increase MPG while adding as much as 20% hp and tq.

Color me very jaded, but I spent way too much time at cummins trying to maximize performance and mileage while keeping emissions under control and maintaining long service lives.. After spending 4 years with these engines in very intimate quarters... I do not believe MPG numbers above 25mpg for a 6bt OR 4bt in just about any vehicle. Don't believe me.. The BSFC for both engines is nearly the same. I can explain more if you want.

I can guarantee you the horsepower/tq numbers that some people pull from 6bts put the engines over the mechanical limits that we used to ensure the million mile warranty life. I know exactly what the torque number is, and it's so low... You wouldn't believe it.

Yes, advancing timing will give you tons of MPG increases.. However, it will most definetly bring combustion temps up, by allowing a better burn.. Problem is small changes in advancing the timing also increase the NOx output of the engine by astronomic amounts.

Look... I spent 4 years being the guy who did investigations into why engines failed. I've seen more than my share of "tuning" gone wrong. So much so that I will not purchase a diesel unless it is dead stock with no evidence of any tampering.

Ive got a 66 that I have been thinking about doing something different with. HMMM.

I actually have two, One is complete except the bed for parts. Other is complete, Ive had both for 20+ years.

Ignorant wrote: Color me very jaded, but I spent way too much time at cummins trying to maximize performance and mileage while keeping emissions under control and maintaining long service lives.. After spending 4 years with these engines in very intimate quarters... I do not believe MPG numbers above 25mpg for a 6bt OR 4bt in just about any vehicle. Don't believe me.. The BSFC for both engines is nearly the same. I can explain more if you want.

I understand what you're saying. There are (of course) hypermilers out there with Ram 2500s getting mid 30 mpgs, but they lengths they go to get it are bordering on ridiculous - wooden blocks under the pedal, 18-19* timing advance, custom campers that taper down to the tailgate... ugly and useless, but I guess it floats their boat. If they wanted a useless diesel that gets good mileage, why don't they just buy a TDI?

Yes, advancing timing will give you tons of MPG increases.. However, it will most definetly bring combustion temps up, by allowing a better burn.. Problem is small changes in advancing the timing also increase the NOx output of the engine by astronomic amounts.

Agreed, but as long as EGTs stay in check I don't think most folks care about NOx. Not saying they shouldn't (I am a tree hugger). The 6BT in my 24' box truck was factory timed to either 11.5 or 12. I bumped it to 15 and saw no EGT increase. I went to 16*, still no increase. At anything over 16 it started to rise pretty rapidly. In the truck's defense, it does have a short and massive 5" exhaust along with an air filter the size of a 5 gallon bucket. But, at full GVW (24,800 out of 26k) it never spiked any EGTs even on a hot texas day.

Look... I spent 4 years being the guy who did investigations into why engines failed. I've seen more than my share of "tuning" gone wrong. So much so that I will not purchase a diesel unless it is dead stock with no evidence of any tampering.

I can see your viewpoint, but would you buy a tuned-up gas engine? If the answer is yes, then it just seems like you might suffer from dieselphobia ...

I spend all day investigating why transmissions go wrong. If I listened to my own advice, I wouldn't be driving a vehicle with a 4R70W or a 4L60E in it, but I am on both counts. Just because you see the failures doesn't make them a representative slice of the pie. A good example; when I worked downtown at a transmission shop, easily 75% of my work was 99-03 Honda Odysseys and Accords and 01-04 Toyota Siennas with significant showings from Nissan and Mazda. Now I moved to a shop that is 13 miles from downtown and that demographic has radically shifted to F150s, Dodge Rams, and Buicks. Had I never worked downtown I would think that a Sienna Van was a good investment.

I have spent years doing this kind of thing. I just bought (actually traded for) an 03 Duramax with 225k on it. It belonged to a moving company and its daily job was towing a 20k-lb gooseneck with an aftermarket tow/mileage tuner hooked up to it. I didn't hesitate to drop the equivalent of $10k on it. If it were a gas engine, they would have done well if I gave them $3000 and I would have expected major failure from it.

Does it shorten the life of a diesel to double its HP? Of course. But when you're talking about a 6BT or 4BT that was originally designed for 600k, its worth losing a couple hundred thousand miles for something you want. Its no different than a gas engine. Take a 200 HP stock SBC and it will run for 200k. Double its power to 400 and you at least expect it to only last 100k or so.

BTW, I did find this article. It (poorly) outlines a daily-driven 6BT making 1237 hp and 2400+ lb-ft at the ground. By that math, the same tune on a 4BT would be in the neighborhood of 800hp/1600 tq. Sure, shorter life, but saying a 4BD1 couldn't do 400 hp is not really accurate. As with any diesel (provided the components hold together) the only limit to power production is the amount of fuel and air you can cram in the cylinders.

Ignorant wrote: I can guarantee you the horsepower/tq numbers that some people pull from 6bts put the engines over the mechanical limits that we used to ensure the million mile warranty life. I know exactly what the torque number is, and it's so low... You wouldn't believe it.

Actually I would... but we're not talking about a million mile warranty in a 46k GVW commercial vehicle with an ISX. We're talking about hot rod diesel fanatics with a 9k GWV Ram 2500 who would be ecstatic to see 250k from a stock 6BT after their chevy 350 blew up at 125k.

Warrantying an 1800-rpm ISX in a severe duty fire truck means insanely low torque numbers. Warrantying a 3000 rpm ISB in a Dodge pickup for 60k? Easy to please.

curtis73 wrote: I can see your viewpoint, but would you buy a tuned-up gas engine?

For drivers and haulers, everything stock or very close to stock.

I think you'd be surprised at how low the crankshaft torque number is that is considered detrimental for engine life.

In my experience 25mpg is about the max for a daily driver 4bt or 6bt that is liveable. BSFC is about the same and at cruise they make about the same power so therefore fuel consumption is about the same.