Piracy and where it doesn't belong

I guess what I am trying to say is that one really good approach to the problem of piracy is developing a business model that includes making the choice to give away product.

That's what FX does.

As others have said, it's the same approach that retail (and, on a whole 'nother level, healthcare) have taken: Develop a business model in which the people who do pay support and subsidize those who refuse to pay. Actually, we can extrapolate that across the board, to a wide degree.

Basically, there are those who make, and those who take. Although we're always hearing that "it's getting worse," I take comfort in the fact that crusty oldsters have complained about this very fact for as many generations as people have been recording the antics of human behavior, so what we're probably talking about is a given fact of human nature. It has its good and its bad side, and you need to plan for one, prepare for the other.

Margie

There was no sarcasm. Or maybe we just become communists--all working together for the common good. We'll deliver content for free, Poopy can play his concerts for free, JoeyM can teach for free, Zomby Wolf can stand at a machine for free, and SVreX can build houses for free. Maybe that is the answer.

So, who's bringing us lunch? I'll "trade" you some content and entertainment.

SVreX wrote: My point was that he never suffered a loss. He was paid for it (if he did his job well). Doesn't excuse the theft (which I was pretty clear about).

You seem confused. He has suffered a loss, he just planned for it. he didn't give stuff away, it was stolen from him, he just accounts for it so the business can forecast and be accurate.

David S. Wallens wrote: So, who's bringing us lunch? I'll "trade" you some content and entertainment.

I'll engineer you some awesome gas fuel piping for mags!

That's bartering, though, not communism.

tuna55 wrote:

SVreX wrote: My point was that he never suffered a loss. He was paid for it (if he did his job well). Doesn't excuse the theft (which I was pretty clear about).

You seem confused. He has suffered a loss, he just planned for it. he didn't give stuff away, it was stolen from him, he just accounts for it so the business can forecast and be accurate.

Yep. Just like a quickie-mart knows that a certain number of Twinkies will walk out the door without being paid for. It's called shrinkage.

tuna55 wrote:

David S. Wallens wrote: So, who's bringing us lunch? I'll "trade" you some content and entertainment.

I'll engineer you some awesome gas fuel piping for mags! That's bartering, though, not communism.

Well, true, that's why I put trade in quotes--like we'll add ours products to the till while you do the same.

tuna55 wrote: You seem confused. He has suffered a loss, he just planned for it. he didn't give stuff away, it was stolen from him, he just accounts for it so the business can forecast and be accurate.

Actually he did give stuff away.

Some of his product is intentionally "leaked" to free torrents, in poorer quality versions.

Increases his sales of good quality product by increasing his exposure in locations where he doesn't have the kind of penetration he wants.

It's all part of the plan...

How long until we can trade up to me and two other people driving cheap station wagons across Africa in search for the origin of the Nile with a camera crew to document the whole thing so that we can give it away for free on the Internet?

David S. Wallens wrote: ...and SVreX can build houses for free. Maybe that is the answer.

Maybe.

I have built more houses for free than ones I got paid for. (completely true statement)

(I'm not suggesting I am a good example- my bank account would prove that)

Maybe not the best analogy, but any successful pharmaceutical salesman will give out free samples of product to prospective customers, knowing he will make up the loss on the "comeback" sale. Seems like selling content has some similiarities to selling product..

SVreX wrote:

tuna55 wrote: You seem confused. He has suffered a loss, he just planned for it. he didn't give stuff away, it was stolen from him, he just accounts for it so the business can forecast and be accurate.

Actually he did give stuff away. Some of his product is intentionally "leaked" to free torrents, in poorer quality versions. Increases his sales of good quality product by increasing his exposure in locations where he doesn't have the kind of penetration he wants. It's all part of the plan...

Ahh, ok. That's different. That's like if GRM dropped magazines missing some pages around town on sidewalks and stuff. I am pretty sure that's aside the main conversation, though.

I think you're right about the pharmaceutical analogy, which is pretty much what we do. And like Paul, we've probably given away as much as we've gotten paid for. (The content all over this site is just a starter.)

As I was just saying to someone else off-forum, I believe we live in a world of our own creation, and if we've passed by a lot of dollars on the way to creating a community, or to avoid a life surrounded by ugly people who are only in it for the money, I'm okay with that because of the quality of life we've gotten in return.

It is depressing when people knowingly take something that doesn't belong to them, especially when that thing is yours. But in the end, I figure karma is a bitch. (Excellent word, that.)

Margie

Marjorie Suddard wrote: As I was just saying to someone else off-forum, I believe we live in a world of our own creation, and if we've passed by a lot of dollars on the way to creating a community, or to avoid a life surrounded by ugly people who are only in it for the money, I'm okay with that because of the quality of life we've gotten in return.

^QFT!!^

THAT'S why I like you guys!

David S. Wallens wrote:

Keith Tanner wrote: There are studies that show that free PDFs would benefit your bottom line, actually. And those are based on works that are not advertiser supported.

Amazon wants to charge me $17 for your latest book. Where is the free version?

Unfortunately, that's not a model my publisher is comfortable with. And the contract I have with them doesn't allow me to go all Doctorow and give the books away. Who knows what I'll do with the next one, though, and it might be an interesting experiment to try with the out-of-print Locost book. That model would likely work quite well in the Locost community. The free chapter (which is one of the best ones, IMHO, and unlike anything you'll find in any other Miata book) was released at my insistence.

I mentioned this in passing earlier - but there's a big difference between GRM and most books. Advertising. GRM - like every magazine - gets a very large percentage of their income from advertisers. They're basically in the business of selling readers to advertisers. I have no problem with that, I'm one of the people who purchases readers from them But it does mean a different business model is possible than with something like a novel or a how-to book. If a free PDF gets in the hands of an extra 30,000 readers, that's a bigger market they can sell to their advertisers. Add in the potential for trackable links embedded in that PDF and now you've got higher-quality information to give those advertisers about how their dollars are working. Like I said, a different model.

I'm pretty sure David got a free version of my latest book anyhow If not, drop me a line and I'll make sure one lands at GRM HQ.

Just tossing this out: Say you sell person 1 a magazine. Person 1 reads it, shares it with 5 others who all read it and finally donates it to the troopies where it is read by 15 other people until it finally falls apart in the desert. For a magazine, it would seem to me that circulation has gone through the roof. If it costs you $2 to mail person 1 the magazine (that is, you lose $2 on the sale because production and mailing costs are greater than the subscription price), you basically got 20 readers of the magazine (and more importantly, the advertisements) for free, and that would have cost you $40 otherwise. Now, proving those 20 extra readers to the auditors might be the hard part, but it just seems to me that you are ahead with people sharing Teh Mag.

A lot of advertising content (and money) in video media has gone to product placement. Ever wonder why everyone is drinking Heineken and all the bottles on the table just happen to be sitting so you can clearly see all the labels? That's product placement. If that movie is distributed on a torrent, say, to 100 people who otherwise would never have wasted a single dollar on it (as the movie was that bad), then the movie company just extended their advertising viewership by 100. Heineken just got 100 additional ad views that cost the studio zip.

Dr. Hess wrote: Now, proving those 20 extra readers to the auditors might be the hard part.

And that's the rub that derails (or at least hampers) your train of thought.

Advertisers are paying based (at least indirectly) upon on validated circulation numbers. Yeah, the ads are getting extra views by being passed around. But are they getting 5 extra views? 50? 500? The answer makes quite a difference.

And to everybody discussing samples - that's irrelevant. Giving away a free taste is a time-proven sales method for everybody from ice cream vendors to drug dealers. But that's completely different than a business model that revolves around giving away your primary product to consumers for free.

And the concept of giving your OWN product away is completely irrelevant to the subject of piracy, which is when somebody decides they can give away your product for you.

So, combining what Dr Hess and Duke said, it occurs to me that a magazine that is passed around cannot count the increased "readership", but a free torrent can.

So, if the core business model is selling eyeballs, the torrent could have an advantage.

Like I said, you can even have trackable links in the PDF so that advertisers can tell exactly when someone clicks on their ad. It's much easier to audit than print numbers from the advertiser end. I can tell you exactly how many people clicked on ad A vs ad B on Google or in an email blast, but I have much less idea how many people read an ad in GRM and act on it.

Magazines do surveys occasionally to get an idea of their readership. If you're selling your magazine to 20-year-olds with an annual income of $12,000 then you have to sell your ads cheap. Probably to energy drink companies. If your readers are pulling down six digits, then the ads are more expensive. Also in those surveys are usually questions such as "how many people read your copy of this magazine?" And those numbers get pitched to the advertisers.

GRM says that "58% of our readers pass along their magazines". Import Tuner says that every issue has 8 readers on average, while SCC used to claim 2.9. Just FYI, not really important to the piracy aspect of this discussion.

Alan Cesar wrote: How long until we can trade up to me and two other people driving cheap station wagons across Africa in search for the origin of the Nile with a camera crew to document the whole thing so that we can give it away for free on the Internet?

I can have an Escort wagon and a GoPro packed in a container by the weekend if there's an opening.

Keith Tanner wrote: Like I said, you can even have trackable links in the PDF so that advertisers can tell exactly when someone clicks on their ad. It's much easier to audit than print numbers from the advertiser end. I can tell you exactly how many people clicked on ad A vs ad B on Google or in an email blast, but I have much less idea how many people read an ad in GRM and act on it.

The #1 reason I'd be interested in buying something like a Kindle or iTablet or whatever would be to read PDF magazines so that when I see something interesting, I can click on a link to get more info/pictures/embedded video/etc.

I have to say this has been a very intresting read. I had never considdered the trackability of digital media versus print media. With the ever growing popularity of the tablet I can see that this is not far off. However there is another side of this. I was totally psyked when my latist issue of GRM showed up on the day I was leaving for the lake house. There is somthing about reading printed paper copy that takes me back to a simpler time that I really enjoy. I suspect that those under 30 dont get this but I liked the world before the web and the excitement of going to the local pharmacy to get the latest issue. Guess I am dating my self a bit here. On the other hand the immedisy if being able to get further information about an advertisers product is somthing we only dreamed of when I was a kid.

Sorry for the thread hijack but this is a very intresting subject that got me thinking in many directions.

06HHR wrote: Maybe not the best analogy, but any successful pharmaceutical salesman will give out free samples of product to prospective customers, knowing he will make up the loss on the "comeback" sale. Seems like selling content has some similiarities to selling product..

Not commenting on your point, but to your analogy, I want to correct a possible misconception.

Pharmaceutical salesmen (of the Big Pharma variety) do NOT do this anymore. Heck, they aren't even allowed to talk to patients, that's a big no no.

The wild west of the movie Love and Other Drugs is long gone. They don't even give out chotskies (pens, mugs etc.) any more. Samples to doctors are also a very big no no (they could sell them and charge medicare). Any free or discounted product will have to come from some company sponsored program.

Carry on

In reply to dean1484:

+1. This is one of the things I REALLY like about this place. A debate that started out with strong feelings is turning into a reasonable discussion that is educating me along the way.

David S. Wallens wrote: There was no sarcasm. Or maybe we just become communists--all working together for the common good. We'll deliver content for free, Zomby Wolf can stand at a machine for free

I do stand around a lot at work, but they do expect me to fix those machines occasionally. I also expect to get paid.

What I don't expect, is to get paid again every time the machine starts and runs after I fix it.