Prius bad for the environment?

aircooled wrote: Possible, but I suspect Lithium can be recycled, gasoline cannot.

I'm not too sure what that has to do with the place we buy it from.

JeepinMatt wrote: The Prius isn't the grand champ of gas mileage. Not unless you forget about the 80s and the 90s.

Or the first gen Insight. If you could survive with 2 seats, it pulled almost 70 highway

linky

Thanks for all the help everyone. I've already thought of most of this except for the mining of Lithium and the Hydrogen approach--but I'm sure to get at least another page or two out of that!

And, I talked to my professor who said I could use Top Gear as a primary source

In reply to SVreX:

Humanities pursuit of raw materials. Out of the fry pan, into the fire...

The REPLY to feature sucks.

Remember too that the electric drive system is mostly for low-speed, stop and go stuff and at higher speeds the electric motors and batteries are nothing but dead weight that the gas engine has to haul around. So a commuter who does mostly freeway driving might actually be better off with a theoretical, gas-only Prius than the actual hybrid version.

Coupefan wrote: The REPLY to feature sucks.

Use the quote button next to the reply button.

This is why gas-electric hybrids are a farce. The real potential of a hybrid is diesel-electric. Diesel's get 20 to 30% better fuel economy than an equivalent gas powered vehicle, then add the electric motor and you've actually got something that may keep up with a Geo Metro or CRX HF.

I would love a reliable Dodge 2500HD Diesel-Electric hybrid truck, but unfortunately, the wankers in the plant in Mexico had such poor quality control, it was killed.

I miss my Starlet.

Shawn

ReverendDexter wrote: Another angle on this is looking at a Prius, a big complicated multi-motored and multi-fueled (counting battery capacity as "fuel") thing, versus a mid-80's CRX HF or the infamous Geo Metro. The CRX and Geo both are much simpler, easier cars to work on, only have one motor and required fuel source, and both get BETTER mileage than the Prius. Yet another angle is looking at the trend of buying a new car every 3-5 years, versus buying/maintaining a used vehicle (though this has an economic tradeoff, of course)

Now don't go talking crazy, if you are saying that the average US citizen with a 760 credit rating not buying a new car every two years could actually reduce our downward spiral and wanton consumerism is actually not the way to build an economy... well that's just un-Amurikkkan

This message sponsored by the UAW, the AFL-CIO, the Longshoremen and special considerations have been paid by the Chinese government and Big Oil, remember "Without oil you would not get the lube before the anal rape!"

ww wrote: This is why gas-electric hybrids are a farce. The real potential of a hybrid is diesel-electric. Diesel's get 20 to 30% better fuel economy than an equivalent gas powered vehicle, then add the electric motor and you've actually got something that may keep up with a Geo Metro or CRX HF. I would love a reliable Dodge 2500HD Diesel-Electric hybrid truck, but unfortunately, the wankers in the plant in Mexico had such poor quality control, it was killed.

You are still left with making some kind of energy storage device, and the current state of the art isn't sustainable.

And then there's the enviornmental impacts of diesels, too. "Green diesels" are not exactly true- if you make them just as green as gas engines, then the cost of the powertrain almost doubles. From a triple starting point....

Nothing is nearly as straightforward as it seems.

Eric

Alfa driver is correct. Making Diesels "green" is tough.. Most of the attempts at doing so add significant weight and complexity to the system. I believe the benefits will come in time, but at that point will we have HCCI gasoline engines.

I do believe that using HCCI or a diesel running at a steady rpm driving a generator can be made very clean and pretty cheaply.... Steady state is the way to go for optimum efficiency, Think tractor.

I still feel propane should be addressed as a safer alternative. Beside the fact that you can convert a vast majority of the existing fleet over easily, the burned product is by far among the cleanest fuels. I don't mean this as a final step but rather a progressive step in near-zero emission vehicles.

A propane Prius or Insight would be a far greener.

I believe you have over looked one aspect of this. Are we talking fuel economy (FE) as the label, or as the customer sees it?

IF you are talking label which most of the factors discussed so far effect. The major benefit to a HYBIRD is that the federal cycles have very large portions of idle conditions. If you have a battery powered car, you have zero fuel consumption during those conditions. If a gas powered vehicle was to shut down durning idle ( think golfcart) then the majority benefit to all the HYBIRD would go away. There would be customer issues to over come and some engineering ( ie how to drive the AC) but nothing is a huge creation. And once solved this could go over the entire car line.

But this is not a sexy answer and not something you can have a huge press release over. And therefore it is sitting on the sideline.

Only one coffee guys so typos and grammar need to be excused till we have more "fuel" on this end

John Brown wrote: - The cars are made of plastic and aluminum. One of these products is made of oil and the other is made in coal fired foundries.

If you want to elaborate on this in your paper, I suggest the section Polymers are Forever in Alan Weisman's The World Without Us.

SVreX wrote:

aircooled wrote: Possible, but I suspect Lithium can be recycled, gasoline cannot.

I'm not too sure what that has to do with the place we buy it from.

Because, if you can effectively recycle a good percentage of the Lithium at a reasonable cost, you will need FAR less from the "foreigners". This make you less "utterly" dependent.

My question has always been, how much of the Prius' efficiency comes from the hybrid powertrain and how much from the engineering in the rest of the car? I'd love to take the Prius' gas motor, which uses the sophisticated Miller cycle technology, and bolt it to a five-speed manual transmission with long gears and see what kind of mileage you get once you ditch the heavy electric motor and batteries.

My 1986 Civic Si got 33 MPG in town and 44 on the highway at 80 MPH. I'm seriously bugged that twenty years of techonology has resulted in lower efficiency.

As stated before, hybrid technology benefits accrue mostly in stop-and-go and low-speed driving. On a highway commute, you're mostly just lugging are heavy, redundant stuff.

I live in Phoenix. All batteries suffer extremely reduced life in hot environments. I get 2-3 years out of an eight year lead-acid battery. The NiMh batteries in my cordless drill lasted less than two years. No way I'd buy a battery-driven vehicle in Phoenix. Yes, Toyota has done some sophisticated engineering to extend battery life, and they warranty the first battery, but if battery life proves to be closer to, say, five years rather than eight, you're going to get hurt very badly on resale value. Also, shorter battery life multiplies issues from battery production and disposal.

NiMh batteries are hazardous materials. Who cleans them up after a big accident, and who pays?

The Prius has a 44 volt electrical system rather than the 12 volt we're all used to. This can be fatal to emergency workers cutting you out of the vehicle after and accident. There are all kinds of safety issues there.

Oh, and diesels have lower CO2 emissions.

I hope this helps.

David

DWNSHFT wrote: My question has always been, how much of the Prius' efficiency comes from the hybrid powertrain and how much from the engineering in the rest of the car? I'd love to take the Prius' gas motor, which uses the sophisticated Miller cycle technology, and bolt it to a five-speed manual transmission with long gears and see what kind of mileage you get once you ditch the heavy electric motor and batteries.

I will bet the engine will not work well in "normal" driving conditions.

DWNSHFT wrote: My 1986 Civic Si got 33 MPG in town and 44 on the highway at 80 MPH. I'm seriously bugged that twenty years of techonology has resulted in lower efficiency.

Your CiViC Si would be a gross polluter today, and since the safety pansies have required multi stage airbags on every sharp, solid or flat surface in the vehicle you can't get here from there.

DWNSHFT wrote: As stated before, hybrid technology benefits accrue mostly in stop-and-go and low-speed driving. On a highway commute, you're mostly just lugging are heavy, redundant stuff.

Agreed, with one exception, why can't there be a "dual drive electric" that assists at launch and in final drive? The electric motor accelerates the car, the CNG engine takes over around 35 and the electric motor re engages at sustained highway speed and "locks up" like the torque converter while the engine idles for charge purposes.

DWNSHFT wrote: I live in Phoenix. All batteries suffer extremely reduced life in hot environments. I get 2-3 years out of an eight year lead-acid battery. The NiMh batteries in my cordless drill lasted less than two years. No way I'd buy a battery-driven vehicle in Phoenix. Yes, Toyota has done some sophisticated engineering to extend battery life, and they warranty the first battery, but if battery life proves to be closer to, say, five years rather than eight, you're going to get hurt very badly on resale value. Also, shorter battery life multiplies issues from battery production and disposal. NiMh batteries are hazardous materials. Who cleans them up after a big accident, and who pays? The Prius has a 44 volt electrical system rather than the 12 volt we're all used to. This can be fatal to emergency workers cutting you out of the vehicle after and accident. There are all kinds of safety issues there.

Same in Michigan, place the batteries in a controlled enclusure.

DWNSHFT wrote: Oh, and diesels have lower CO2 emissions.

But higher solid particulates - a losing tradeoff in my book.

DWNSHFT wrote: Oh, and diesels have lower CO2 emissions.

And MUCH higher NOx emissions, and it's really, really hard to convert it (the actual engine emissions are lower than gas engines, but you can convert the gas engine to pretty much 0, and you can't with a diesel; although you can come cose with muti thousand dollar emissions systems).

IMHO, CO2 is irrelevant if the rest of the enviornment is bad to live in. See any major city in Europe, and note that it's far, far worse than LA on it's worst days currently.....

But that's just the environmentalist in me.

Eric

Oh, I forgot some of the safety aspects...

-Hybrids utilize high voltage which can be lethal to emergency workers, bystanders, or vehicle occupants. The bigger problem is that people don't understand this. Most people understand if they come up on a wreck and see fuel spilling or flames that there is a very great danger. Unfortunately, they do not understand the electrical safety risks if they come up on a wreck. Twisted metal could be positively charged, a car in standing water could charge the water, a second vehicle in the wreck could be charged.

-Some models (mostly earlier) can have issues for mechanics and other workers. I am familiar with a Toyota mechanic who was changing the oil on a Prius. He had left the door open, and the dome light was wearing down the battery. When the voltage dropped to a pre-determined level, the gas engine started, just like it was supposed to to re-charge the batteries. Unfortunately, there was no oil in the crankcase.

-Another case was that of a roll-back operator. The Prius was dead, and in gear as he loaded it onto the truck. The forward rolling of the wheels and the re-generative braking system was enough to get a bit of charge back into the batterries. The vehicle started and drove over the cab of his truck.

DWNSHFT wrote: My 1986 Civic Si got 33 MPG in town and 44 on the highway at 80 MPH. I'm seriously bugged that twenty years of techonology has resulted in lower efficiency. David

Your 86 & my 87 Civic Si weighed about 1800lbs. The current Civic is about 2700lbs. There aren't many sub 2klbs cars in the us any longer.

admc58 wrote:

DWNSHFT wrote: My 1986 Civic Si got 33 MPG in town and 44 on the highway at 80 MPH. I'm seriously bugged that twenty years of techonology has resulted in lower efficiency. David

Your 86 & my 87 Civic Si weighed about 1800lbs. The current Civic is about 2700lbs. There aren't many sub 2klbs cars in the us any longer.

The current civic isn't really a Civic IMO. Jebbus, look how big it is! The 2 door coupe is larger then a prelude from the early 90's!

DWNSHFT wrote: My question has always been, how much of the Prius' efficiency comes from the hybrid powertrain and how much from the engineering in the rest of the car? I'd love to take the Prius' gas motor, which uses the sophisticated Miller cycle technology, and bolt it to a five-speed manual transmission with long gears and see what kind of mileage you get once you ditch the heavy electric motor and batteries.

Very good idea. Too bad Grassroots wouldn't do it - it's not exactly motorsports.

DWNSHFT wrote: My question has always been, how much of the Prius' efficiency comes from the hybrid powertrain and how much from the engineering in the rest of the car? I'd love to take the Prius' gas motor, which uses the sophisticated Miller cycle technology, and bolt it to a five-speed manual transmission with long gears and see what kind of mileage you get once you ditch the heavy electric motor and batteries.

Wha-huh? Miller cycle requires a supercharger, which the Prius most certainly does not have.

Quoth Wikipedia:

In the Miller cycle, the intake valve is left open longer than it would be in an Otto cycle engine. In effect, the compression stroke is two discrete cycles: the initial portion when the intake valve is open and final portion when the intake valve is closed. This two-stage intake stroke creates the so called "fifth" cycle that the Miller cycle introduces. As the piston initially moves upwards in what is traditionally the compression stroke, the charge is partially expelled back out the still-open intake valve. Typically this loss of charge air would result in a loss of power. However, in the Miller cycle, this is compensated for by the use of a supercharger.

The Smart is really the closest equivalent to the 80's econocars. A lot of people still perceive them as death traps... I highly doubt they're any worse than the tin cans from the 80's.