pinchvalve wrote:Quad 4 and a T5?
I'm listening...
pinchvalve wrote:
I'm listening...
That's no Quad 4... that's an Ecotec!
The super nice thing about Ecotecs (besides their light weight and relative compactness for their displacement) is that GM put out a series of books on how to make power with them, complete with charts that say over X RPM you need to upgrade this, over Y you need to upgrade that, failure points are here here and there at this power level forced induction, etc. I like how they detail how to convert the hydraulic chain tensioner to a purely mechanical one if you rev it over 8000 or somesuch.
Making power can be expensive, but it's really expensive if you have to do your own R&D.
Ecotec is on my shortlist of boinger swaps. The FWD oil pan looks like it will slot neatly over the FC subframe and it's just low enough that the chain case shouldn't foul the hood. And the exhaust even exits down the correct side. The biggest downside is, once you ditch the plastic manifold for proper ITBs, how the heck do you get to the oil filter?
Awww, did I ruin the fun? Sorry. I guess I'm cranky. 3 hours of sleep last night.
No, i was just outside working on a turbo dodge from the time i last posted, until about 30 mins ago. 
Swank Force One wrote: I like power, and don't care how it happens. Paul, tell them how amusing my F2T is, and how badly the top end well... doesn't fall off. Just a 3000rpm powerband of hugeness.
I was shocked how Ben's car ran... I may have rode shotgun in Mexico, and it'll do triple digits in a hurry!!! I have an RX-7 13B Twin Turbo Clutch (93-up RX-7) in my F2T'd MX-3.
That's not an FD clutch... those were pull-type.
hmmm.... 
I was told that's what it was anyway from the Previous Owner that did the swap. I bought it new, but unused. Better see what sorta fuelpump I really have in the MX-3 then... He said a 255 Walbro, we'll see... Thanks for the heads up Knurled ;-)
I wouldnt worry about it Dan, it's probably an FC clutch depending on what "stage" it is. If it holds it holds. 
No slippage issues at all :-)
Recommended power level: Pretty sure HX35 cars are making 400+ I need to find dyno plots to back it up.
HX35 cars are making over 500whp, actually.
Here's a 30 psi dodge dyno plot to go with Ben's 27 psi plot. Goes to show how useless boost number is for gauging power without knowing the rest of the setup. It takes a measly 200 more rpm to match the 450wtq number of the f2t, but since the torque doesnt fall off as rapidly after peak, it makes 180 more peak WHP, and at 6000 rpm it actually makes 370 WHP MORE than the f2t was making. The top ends of the engines are totally apples to oranges (this is a 2.5 with a 16v neon head, basically a different way to build a dodge 2.4) but this illustrates the relative crappiness of low-rpm biased heads and manifolds.
And this guy is not the best tuner in the community, that's for sure. See 4k rpm flat spot as evidence. He also ran 2.2 and 2.5 bottom ends back to back without really changing the tune.
This is an he351 holset with an hx35 turbine wheel. The he351 compressor is slightly bigger so i dont want to say that an hx35 can touch 600whp since i havent actually searched for that info, but over 500whp is a given.
So, are we concerned with making the driver grin or are we concerned with making a fast car?
Well based on Tunas comments i guess he just wants a fast car and doesnt care about the intangibles like fun. But any reasonably light 350hp car will be fun-ish. Although i remember driving a 6.0/6spd 400hp camaro SS and thinking it was distinctly boring. It was heavy, though.
I would like one of these engines like a F2T in a RX7 instead of the SBC swaps you always see.
Knurled wrote:Swank Force One wrote: Don't need to spin to 8000 to do that either. If you do, you sized your turbo wrong.That's what I'm getting at. If peak power is, say, 6500, then I'd want the engine to be safe to at least 7500, preferably higher. That way you can drive up and over the power curve instead of up to peak power and then upshift into a hole. This is also a benefit for a traction limited application, if power is falling off with increased RPM then wheelspin tends to rein itself in. This is a lot of why rotaries tend to fight above their weight level. The power curve falls off gracefully.
DOH! Mods: Was scrolling through on my phone and accidentally flagged this. My bad!
In reply to Vigo:
The 2.4 is a much superior motor when it comes to breathing, so i'm not real surprised that it's making that much more power on a turbo twice the size pushing more boost. And in this case, with swapping bottom ends, it's clear that a DOHC 16v head breathes better than an SOHC 12v head. Call the press! 
But that illustrated my point with the F2T vs. the old school Mopars after a fashion...
Garaithon's car is pushing more boost on a turbo twice the size than my F2T setup. Lighter car. We both have the same bullE36 M3 tuning "solutions." His is just a 2.2 8v motor, though. A pretty fresh 2.2 8v, compared to my tired 205k-never-opened F2T.
I'm not seeing anything here that surprises me. The 2.4 is superior to either motor.
This is killing me, though... i wish i could dyno my car but until i replace the clutch, it'll just be an exercise in futility.
The 2.4 is a much superior motor when it comes to breathing, so i'm not real surprised that it's making that much more power on a turbo twice the size pushing more boost.
That's why i cant personally recommend going out of my way to put the 8v dodge (which acts like an f2t) into something it didnt come in. It's the same price as the 2.4 when you're starting from nothing, roughly the same strength, but the 16v 2.4 makes power WAY easier, because UNLIKE an 8v or f2t the torque doesnt fall off like crazy after peaking early. It WILL make every bit as much peak torque as a 2.5 8v or f2t given that the turbo spools at the same rpm. So there is really no downside vs an older crap-flowing motor. It has tons of support including MS base maps and a glut of cast-off high performance parts floating around everywhere.
I love the old 80s motors but when you're going to the trouble to swap something into a car it never came in, i really dont know why anyone would pick one of those over something else that is vastly superior and the same or less work and money.
Garaithon's car is pushing more boost on a turbo twice the size than my F2T setup. Lighter car. We both have the same bullE36 M3 tuning "solutions." His is just a 2.2 8v motor, though. A pretty fresh 2.2 8v, compared to my tired 205k-never-opened F2T.
Very simple, there is something wrong with it. People with stock 8v motors have dyno'd just under 300whp on the stock turbo at less than 30psi. Any 30 psi holset dyno, even on an otherwise stock E36 M3-flowing motor, should be well over 300whp or there's something wrong.
Like i said... i really need to get a clutch in my car, dammit.
I suppose the equivalent would be the FE3 head on the F2T bottom.
So which of these gives me a 300hp miata the "easiest"
Jaynen wrote: So which of these gives me a 300hp miata the "easiest"
None of them. The easiest for that is a BP with forged rods and pistons, turbo kit of your choice.
I suppose the equivalent would be the FE3 head on the F2T bottom.
I figured there is some kind of mazda equivalent but didnt know what it was. Dodge just made it easy. A 2.4 is basically an old 2.5 with a 2.0 neon head, just done from the factory with all stock (common) parts. Even in the old turbo dodges there is now no real reason to build a 16v hybrid when a complete 2.4 swap is so easy.
So, are the NA 2.4l Dodges the same as the Turbo motors, just different rods and pistons?
singleslammer wrote: So, are the NA 2.4l Dodges the same as the Turbo motors, just different rods and pistons?
Pretty much.
In reply to Ranger50:
Hmmm....
^ No oil squirters but beyond that the same. Just match the head and engine block. Also 03+ uses a different engine management system.
Is the ecotec the best "easily found, no opening required" engine then? I really like the dodge but the turbo motors are not super common around here and generally cost more than a grand.
Speaking of all this turbo dodge which one would you all consider the "best", other than SRT4.
Jaynen wrote: So which of these gives me a 300hp miata the "easiest"
Buying a Mazdaspeed Miata and doing a turbo swap.
singleslammer wrote: Is the ecotec the best "easily found, no opening required" engine then? I really like the dodge but the turbo motors are not super common around here and generally cost more than a grand.
In terms of making power on a stock motor? I'd have to go with a 4g63 or a Honda K-series or F-series for that requirement.
There's been reports of true mazda-built FE3/FE3N/FE-DOHCs doing 600whp on stock motors, but obviously the same support isn't there.
The Ecotec's claim to fame is that GM tells you EXACTLY what to do, and it's all in a catalog.
kanaric wrote:Jaynen wrote: So which of these gives me a 300hp miata the "easiest"Buying a Mazdaspeed Miata and doing a turbo swap.
No advantage to a Mazdaspeed Miata for 300whp. I'd just start with any 6spd equipped Miata.
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