As to the IMS failure concern. You are aware of aftermarket warrantees yes? If you're dropping 25 large on a toy with a 12 thousand dollar time bomb of an engine, spend $2,000 up front for an aftermarket powertrain warrantee that will cover it for the next 5 years and 100,000 miles.
Most engines don't fail, but selling peace of mind is how those companies stay in business. I paid $2,200 for the one on my Passat and got back over 13 large in repairs.
penultimeta wrote: Honestly, I think you have a pretty comprehensive list. I would add a c6 vette on there and gen III viper as suggested. These are all good cars, you'll have to find the one you like best.
I have an appointment to drive a C6 Vette this evening. 
I can't seem to find a Gen 3 Viper (2013+) for anywhere near my budget. All of the ones I've seen that I could afford seem to be 1992-2000 model years. Occasionally, I see a 2003-2006 SRT-10 pop up for close to my budget (still a bit over). Although most of the Gen 3 cars are way beyond what I'm looking to spend. Unless I have the wrong definition of what the Gen 3 cars are?!?
KyAllroad wrote: As to the IMS failure concern. You are aware of aftermarket warrantees yes? If you're dropping 25 large on a toy with a 12 thousand dollar time bomb of an engine, spend $2,000 up front for an aftermarket powertrain warrantee that will cover it for the next 5 years and 100,000 miles. Most engines don't fail, but selling peace of mind is how those companies stay in business. I paid $2,200 for the one on my Passat and got back over 13 large in repairs.
Yes sir, I have considered just such a thing and might even go that route.
My biggest concern with an aftermarket warranty is that they usually have some clause in the contract that states the warranty will be null and void if the car is raced or modified. Well, I'm planning on both autoX and HPDE track days... and am open to modifying it just a bit here and there. Nothing too crazy, I don't plan on any sort of competitive wheel-to-wheel racing series, or crazy 500+hp builds; but the car will still see some additional stress that a normal daily likely wouldn't see.
As a normal daily commuter, I think it would be a very wise investment; especially on anything with a German badge on it. For my purposes, I would hate to pop a motor at a track/autoX event (it's possible) and be told to go pound sand after shelling out money for an aftermarket warranty.
I've popped motors on previous cars in the past, due to engine modification or track use; although it's been several years! In those cases, I sucked it up, didn't bother with trying to get warranty coverage (they weren't exactly related to manufacture defects!), and I just paid for my mistakes/failures out of pocket. I planned on having the same mentality with my next weekend playtoy.
The aftermarket warranty might still be a good idea for normal wear and tear though. I'm still mulling it over.
roninsoldier83 wrote:Driven5 wrote: Caterham/Westfield/Stalker? Repli-Cobra?Are they road legal? I was always under the impression that they were "off road use only" track cars. I do live in a county that requires emissions, inspections, ect- not sure if that matters or not.
They can be completely road and emissions legal, especially if you go with a Factory Five or Exomotive/Catfish solution (the latter of which are available from Flyin Miata in Colorado). Its about the drivetrain/donor you choose to use as the starting point.
roninsoldier83 wrote:KyAllroad wrote: Flyin Miata currently has 3 turbo cars for sale on their page. The first is a NB that looks really nice for 1/2 your budget.I've owned a turbo NB Miata before- '04 Mazdaspeed Miata. Just normal bolt-ons, nothing crazy. I had a lot of fun in my MSM! Although I drove it back to back with a bone stock S2000, and the S2000 felt like "more car"- fit my bigger frame better (especially in the leg room department), made better noises, better shifter, better seats, better engine, a lot less cowl shake and everything just felt more solid inside. With bolt-ons I think my MSM was a bit quicker, but I actually had more fun in the Honda. Not looking to go back to an NA/NB.
FWIW, your bolt-on Mazdaspeed probably made about 180-190 at the wheels. There's no dyno chart with that 10AE, but it has a 3071 and the supporting hardware capable of making 350-400 at the wheels if tuned properly. It will be more than just "a bit quicker". :)
In reply to roninsoldier83:
Locost 7?
If you go with the AP2 right now, there would also be nothing stopping you from swapping it for a 987.2 in a few years.
Hmm, it does seem like Gen IIIs have creeped up lately. I was seeing '02-'07 examples for low 30s last year.
pres589 wrote: In reply to roninsoldier83: Locost 7?
Same boat as the Caterham's for me. I think if I was going to spend the money to build some sort of "kit car", I would likely just go the Exocet route. Although, I'm not so sure the little lady would approve of any of them on date nights! 
Driven5 wrote: If you go with the AP2 right now, there would also be nothing stopping you from swapping it for a 987.2 in a few years.
I agree completely. That's probably one of the most appealing aspects of the AP2 S2000, as they don't seem to be depreciating anymore.
I could legitimately see a person buying a late (2006-2009) drive-by-wire AP2, driving it for 2-3 years and selling it for little to no loss; assuming it wasn't involved in an accident, ect.
All Boxsters/Corvettes/ect will continue to depreciate. Brand new cars like the ND Miata will likely have a steeper depreciation curve than the rest due to being so new.
I would probably put the Elise in the same boat as the S2000, as prices haven't dropped on those cars in years.
I don't want to base a decision off of depreciation, but that is certainly an aspect to take into consideration.
In reply to roninsoldier83:
New Miata.
I took a 2006 (C6) Corvette out for a spin tonight. It was a base model with a 6-speed manual, targa top, with about 50k miles on the clock. Good car. I'll write down my impressions of the C6 when I get a bit of free time over the next few days.
^ I'll be very curious to hear your impressions. Generally, there isn't a lot of discussion about the C6 on this forum.
Well, I'm planning on both autoX and HPDE track days... and am open to modifying it just a bit here and there.
Just keep in mind that stock convertible and HPDE track days don't usually go hand in hand. If you really want to do HPDE, make sure you check with the clubs / tracks in your area to see what limitations they have on convertibles. Some clubs will let you run specific models but not others.
Or just spend $25k on your weekend toy, and go buy a track rat for $5k :-)
I had an AP2. It was a great ride for a few years. I drove mine in winter with snows and on track, and crashed it on track (gently, but bodywork is bodywork) so I lost quite a bit. But generally they'll hold value well. C6 is a lot of car for the money...I was debating Cayman/Boxster S and Z06. I decided to go the less fancy and refined route and pursue some brute power. I don't regret this at all. The C6 feels less special just driving around though, even in Z form it's pretty mild IMO. This could be a good or bad thing.
I recently took a (C6) 2006 Corvette for a spin. It was a 6MT targa top, base model car. Not a bad car by any means, and certainly very fast, but it was softer than I expected. I know the Corvette is “America's sports car”, but the base model (non-Z51) felt more GT car than it did hardcore sports car.
I found the seating position to be a bit odd, but I was able to get pretty comfortable. I drove the car with the top removed, so I have no idea how much headroom I would have with the top on, but I'm pretty sure I would fit just fine. The seats were comfortable, but lacked the amount of bolstering of several of the other sports cars I've driven. I didn't realize the back/side bolstering was adjustable until the drive was pretty much over, but there was no real thigh bolstering/support to speak of.
The interior was nothing to write home about, but no major complaints here. Seemed like a much nicer car than the last C5 I was in, but that's not really saying much.
I was shocked at how light the steering was. It seemed to offer decent feedback and loaded up just fine. Again, nothing to write home about, but I preferred the C6's steering over the C5 Z06's steering, which didn't feel very linear. I noticed that the softer C6 (vs the C5 Z06 I drove) didn't display the same bump-steer characteristics that I remembered about the C5Z.
Of course the C6's party piece is the engine. I don't know if I really need to say much- 400hp & 400 ft-lbs of torque.... Car is plenty fast and has great throttle response! If I owned a C6, I don't think I would even bother touching the engine, aside from reliability mods (oil cooler, ect). It makes a great noise and pulls with authority from anywhere in the rev range. Typical LS motor here!
The transmission/shifter was pretty notchy, but got the job done and had a good, positive engagement to it. Much better than the C5 Z06 I drove, which seemed very vague. Although it can't match cars like the S2000, Boxster, ND Miata or even my daily driver (2016 Golf R 6MT).
One thing I wasn't a big fan of was the super tall gearing. I wasn't staring at the speedo/tach constantly, but it felt like 1st gear wrapped out to about ~60mph and 2nd seemed to go to about ~85mph. Very different from my Golf R, where 2nd tops out around ~57mph. Might just be a personal preference, but I've always felt that cars with shorter gearing just seem more playful in general.
Don't get me wrong, the engine's broad torque curve allows the Vette to pull in any gear, at any RPM and there's really no need to use shorter gears for extra torque multiplication. However, I feel the same way about the C6 as the C5Z- it has so much power, and such tall gearing, that you can't really exploit the car's high limits on the street. The old adage seems to be true here- “it's more fun to drive a slow car fast than it is to drive a fast car slow”.
I believe the optional Z51 package has shorter gearing. If I was buying a C6, I would absolutely seek out a Z51 package car.
We drove the car down the canyon, but took it pretty easy. I pushed it just enough to get a feel for it and backed off pretty quickly.
The C6 felt pretty stable/planted, but it had considerably more body roll than I was expecting. I was shocked that it actually felt heavier than my Golf R, despite spec sheets suggesting that the big Vette is actually the lighter car. I think the C6's long, wide chassis was responsible for it feeling heavier than it actually is; vs my VW's relatively short & more narrow wheelbase. The C6 didn't feel Mustang/Camaro heavy, but it certainly felt heavier than the comparative featherweights I've been cross shopping. The body roll certainly didn't help things in that department either.
The C6 has decent turn-in, but there's quite a bit of body movement and quick transitions seemed to upset the chassis. A couple turns where I lacked smoothness could really be felt.
With that said, the ride was extremely comfortable. I don't think I felt any road imperfections whatsoever. I get the feeling that the base Corvette is setup more as a GT car than a sports car.
The pedals were in a good position and seemed like it would make for easy heel/toe work, even if I didn't really exploit it on my test drive.
I didn't push the brakes hard enough to make an informed judgment about them. They seemed to haul the big Vette down without a problem and were easy to modulate. Again, nothing to write home about, but they get the job done.
So, I'm now somewhat curious. I know the car's biggest sports car shortcomings are supposed to be improved upon with the Z51 or later Grand Sport packages- stiffer suspensions, shorter gearing, ect. I'm almost certain I would prefer the Z51 over the base setup, but I don't know if I would prefer it over the S2000 or 987 Boxster S. It just feels like a significantly larger/less “sporty” car, at least in base trim, and I'm not sure if the Z51/Grand Sport pacakage would rectify that feeling.
Don't get me wrong, I hold no illusions about the S2000 or Boxster being able to actually keep up with the big Vette. The problem is that I think I would need to take the Vette to a big open road course to really be able to exploit it and appreciate it's strengths. In the canyons and on the street, I think the smaller cars will likely always be more fun to drive; at least to me. But maybe I'm wrong?
Although with the big, comfy seats, smooth ride and relaxed/torquey V8, I think the Vette would likely be the better daily driver (vs the Boxster/S2000/Miata). Unfortunately, that's just not what I'm looking for.
I'm glad I drove the C6 and can say with all confidence that I prefer it over the C5, but I still prefer the Boxster/S2000.
wake74 wrote: Well, I'm planning on both autoX and HPDE track days... and am open to modifying it just a bit here and there. Just keep in mind that stock convertible and HPDE track days don't usually go hand in hand. If you really want to do HPDE, make sure you check with the clubs / tracks in your area to see what limitations they have on convertibles. Some clubs will let you run specific models but not others. Or just spend $25k on your weekend toy, and go buy a track rat for $5k :-)
My local track (High Plains Raceway) allows some convertibles without additional roll protection for HPDE days- namely the S2000, Boxster and BMW Z4.
They require additional roll protection on Miata's and most other convertibles.
http://highplainsraceway.com/drive-the-track/open-lapping-days-information/
It's funny you mentioned spending $25k on the weekend toy and $5k on a track rat, as that thought has crossed my mind numerous times. Right now, I'm just going to focus on the weekend toy, but down the line, who knows.
You could build one Hell of an mr2 spyder and put the rest in the bank, or spend it on track time in your 400hp <2000lb budget elise.
sesto elemento wrote: You could build one Hell of an mr2 spyder and put the rest in the bank, or spend it on track time in your 400hp <2000lb budget elise.
Considered that a few times. I like the idea of the MR2 Spyder with a 2ZZ swap. I've owned an SW20 MR2 Turbo in the past and had a lot of fun in it, so I figured I would enjoy the Spyder.
I drove a couple of them and they just never did anything for me. I know they have a lot of potential with some work, but in stock form I just didn't have much fun in the MR2 Spyder. Although, they really have a surprising amount of interior space for being such small cars! I was shocked that I felt really comfortable inside the cabin, despite my relatively large frame (6'2" 210 lbs).
To be fair, both of the Spyders I drove had high miles and several issues that detracted from the experience. Hard to find pristine, low mileage garage queens to drive locally and it seems like most of the ones that pop up have that horrid SMT transmission.
Low points of the MR2 Spyder (from what I can remember):
-Rattle traps. Tons of creaks and chassis flex.
-Car felt very cheap. Don't get me wrong, I'm not looking for a luxury car, but the Spyder felt noticeably cheaper than pretty much everything else I drove against it. "Flimsy" is an accurate word.
-Lots of body roll.
-The stock 1ZZ engine really felt like a lifeless lump of motor. It had no character and wasn't fun to rev. It felt like it belonged in a Toyota Corolla... and well, it does belong in a Corolla.
I feel like the Spyder has potential to be a really fun car, but both times I drove one, I walked away thinking "I now understand why the NB Miata absolutely killed the MR2 Spyder in sales".
I think with the 2ZZ engine/6-speed swap, stiffer suspension and lots of chassis bracing, it could probably be a very fun little car to drive. However, I have a hard time convincing myself to spend money on a car that I didn't really enjoy very much to begin with; you know what I mean? Hard to spend money on a playtoy that I didn't really form an emotional connection with, if that makes any sense.
Just buy an S2000 already. You have a Golf R for DDing so I don't see the need for owning another German car if you're worried about maintenance costs.
I just bought an AP2 S2000. 2005 was the last year with a real throttle cable and no traction nannies. I'm in love. Parts are pretty cheap, it's super easy to work on, large aftermarket and it's a Honda so parts crossover from other models, and that bottom end is good for 500whp if you want to add boost. I was on the fence between that and a 996 hard top and the long term maintenance costs of the Porsche made me choose a S2K. An ND Miata was on my shopping list too. I had an absolute blast driving one around but I wasn't going to pay more for one of those when it was just as clunky and loud as a used S2K with less power and a brand new car price tag.
Thanks for the comments, interesting to hear. Is it a lack of nimbleness that you missed?
The Z51 package gives a ton of value, even used it seems like it offers too much to avoid. Bigger rad, oil cooler, transaxle cooler, bigger brakes, better gearing, stiffer suspension. The cost and effort of changing all of that yourself in a base model is considerable.
Dimensionally speaking, the C6 vs. RX-8 (I own one) is the same length and wheel base, C6 +3" width, -3" height, +200lbs. It sounds like it drives bigger than that?
turtl631 - what is it that you think makes it feel not special to drive?
Pretty light steering at low speeds, big minimally bolstered seats, basic Chevy interior. Also consider I'm coming from an S2000 on bigger sticky tires. So, short gearing, high revving, heavy steering, top down... Just more drama at 20 mph.
Buy an NC, talk with Keith and his crew and make a super 20?
A stock spyder is honestly pretty mediocre, a boosted 2zz swapped one with chassis bracing and a little bit of suspension development (springs, dampers, sways), is an amazing sportscar. The rattliness you described hasn't been my experience, but I can tell you some structural reinforcement definitely tightens them up. I have one that's a gutted track whore that I or my wife drive daily and even without carpet or sound deadening it's pretty refined. The more gutted they are, the better the storage situation becomes as well. I've got a 2zz that I'm building for boost and will hopefully be swapping in this winter with a target of 350ish whp, my car weighs 1970lbs with a half tank of fuel. If you like the elise but dont fit in one, a zzw30 is worth looking into.
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