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prodarwin
prodarwin MegaDork
8/21/24 10:07 a.m.

Regarding reliability, I haven't personally turbocharged one, but watching those around me do it, it seems that even with the same vehicle they can range from A) very reliable to B) very unreliable.

I'm not talking grenading-engines unreliable (though that is absolutely possible), or grenading transmissions (almost a guaranteed outcome in certain applications), but more like "little E36 M3 keeps going wrong and costing track-time, autox runs, etc".  Intercooler piping is routed questionably and pops off.  Overheating problems.  Broken exhaust studs, cracked manifolds, wiring issues, etc.

 

 

Toyman!
Toyman! MegaDork
8/21/24 10:41 a.m.

In reply to prodarwin :

That would be fairly irritating. 

Intercooler routing and installation is going to be a challenge. I have a winch mounted fairly low and behind the grill now. I also don't want the intercooler somewhere it can get damaged or stopped up with mud. It's also still going to have to draw through the snorkel and the OE air box. 

20240525_131153.jpg

I'm going to have to do some studying and may end up going to an air/water intercooler. Something like this. 

Universal Air-to-Water Intercooler, Dual-Pass Coolant Flow

 

 

mfennell
mfennell HalfDork
8/21/24 10:42 a.m.
cyow5 said:

One thing to keep in mind whenever anyone says "my stock block has been making 2x hp for 100,000 miles!" or similar transmission claims is that they may or may not be actually producing that power on a regular basis.

Exactly this.  I (roughly) doubled the HP of my little Golf Sportwagen 43,000 miles ago.  The 1.8 VW engines are pretty stout and it's been perfect but I'm under no illusion that it would pass an OEM durability test configured like it is.  It spends very little time at full boost/power and it's always properly warm (it has an actual oil temp sensor).

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner MegaDork
8/21/24 10:54 a.m.
prodarwin said:

Regarding reliability, I haven't personally turbocharged one, but watching those around me do it, it seems that even with the same vehicle they can range from A) very reliable to B) very unreliable.

I'm not talking grenading-engines unreliable (though that is absolutely possible), or grenading transmissions (almost a guaranteed outcome in certain applications), but more like "little E36 M3 keeps going wrong and costing track-time, autox runs, etc".  Intercooler piping is routed questionably and pops off.  Overheating problems.  Broken exhaust studs, cracked manifolds, wiring issues, etc.

Most of that is the engineering of the kit. If you go the cheapo DIY route, you're going to have to do more of that yourself, and you're going to have those niggling teething pains as you discover weak points. It's no different than building your own track car and learning where the limits of things like wheel bearings and subframes are - or you build a car with lots of support and talk to people who already know.

We've had the IC piping pop off problem. Solved it by going to a different design of monolithic IC piping that has fewer failure points and uses a type of silicone hose that's grippy on the inside. But if you're making your IC pipes out of chunks of metal tube connected with pieces of hose, this will be a problem.

We've had the broken exhaust stud problem. Solved it by going to better locking fasteners and custom-made Inconel studs.

Wiring is almost always an installer problem.

We've seen the cracking manifold problem on other kits. On a Miata GReddy kit, you had to cut slots in the flange between the runners to allow for thermal expansion. Welded-up tubular manifolds crack as a matter of course. Big chonky logs built out of thick wall weld-els, not as much.

Overheating is due to poor coolant routing (the common Miata routing puts very hot water from the turbo right back into the block, bypassing the radiator), the fact that your cooling system has to deal with more heat and the fact that you're putting more heat into the air in front of the radiator thanks to an intercooler. That requires correct engineering, upgraded cooling and good airflow management. All stuff that a good kit designer will take into account but that you'll have to learn about bit by bit as a DIY builder.

It's also mechanical empathy on the part of the operator. We turbocharged our 3.4L T100 shop truck years ago, doing terrible things that would make a Toyota engineer weep. Added about 25% more torque. A single turbo on one bank of the engine. Fuel management by rising rate fuel pressure. No real timing adjustment. Stock clutch. But it held up to towing an overloaded trailer across mountain passes over and over without any sort of failure, mostly because the drivers knew how to keep it out of the detonation danger zone. Not a vehicle you'd loan out, but it was able to do the job if properly cared for.

Toyman!
Toyman! MegaDork
8/21/24 12:34 p.m.

In reply to Keith Tanner :

The engineering in this kit is minimal at best. It also has no installation manual. I'd call it more of a parts kit for a person to engineer their own system. 

That's OK by me, I'll enjoy getting it together and working. 

 

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner MegaDork
8/21/24 12:41 p.m.

In reply to Toyman! :

Nothing wrong with that if you go in with your eyes open. It's the journey, not the destination :) Just be aware that it's gonna be in project car mode for a bit.

codrus (Forum Supporter)
codrus (Forum Supporter) UltimaDork
8/21/24 12:45 p.m.

As far as the intercooler piping thing goes, make sure that the silicone couplers and the pipes are clean when (re-)assembling.  If you have a cam breather on the intake (or a slightly leaky compressor bearing) then there will be a thin coating of oil on the inside of the pipes, and if a joint ever blows open then that oil will get all over the joint surface.  If it's not cleaned off really well (use alcohol or some other solven) that lubricates it and makes it much more likely to blow open again the next time.

You can also somewhat glue the joints together with hairspray, but I never needed to go that far. :)

 

prodarwin
prodarwin MegaDork
8/21/24 12:52 p.m.
Keith Tanner said:
prodarwin said:

Regarding reliability, I haven't personally turbocharged one, but watching those around me do it, it seems that even with the same vehicle they can range from A) very reliable to B) very unreliable.

I'm not talking grenading-engines unreliable (though that is absolutely possible), or grenading transmissions (almost a guaranteed outcome in certain applications), but more like "little E36 M3 keeps going wrong and costing track-time, autox runs, etc".  Intercooler piping is routed questionably and pops off.  Overheating problems.  Broken exhaust studs, cracked manifolds, wiring issues, etc.

Most of that is the engineering of the kit.

Agreed.  Some companies (we are all well aware of) produce top notch kits.  Others produce a barebones or starter kits that are nothing more than a log manifold and a turbo.  And that log manifold may or may not be reliable.  And there is everything in between.  And some vehicles simply do not have a quality kit available, period.

Toyman is probably in for a few teething pains, but I have confidence in his abilities to sort it out and make it reliable in the long run.  Some others might try this same kit and end up with an unreliable vehicle.

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner MegaDork
8/21/24 1:01 p.m.

In reply to codrus (Forum Supporter) :

Hairspray does actually work. Makes it easier to install AND provides extra hold :) Haven't had to suggest it for years but it's a legit move. Agree on cleaning things.

Toyman!
Toyman! MegaDork
8/21/24 1:17 p.m.

In reply to Keith Tanner :

I'm figuring a couple of days to install the hardware and then at least a month to tune it and work out the bugs. From there, there may be tweaking for several more months. 

My biggest concern will be the tuning. I'm going to wait for cooler weather to get started so I have plenty of time to do research. 

 

budget_bandit
budget_bandit Reader
8/21/24 1:24 p.m.

I'm also interested to hear what your exhaust note sounds like, post turbo. I've watched a YT video of a 5-cyl atlas that sounded a little viper-esque to me

Dusterbd13-michael
Dusterbd13-michael MegaDork
8/21/24 1:25 p.m.

Dumb question: why do guys not TIG together the aluminum tubing and minimize the number of silicone couplers? Is it an installation barrier problem? Or an access to the skill problem? Or do they and I just see the hack jobs? Seems like that would be the ideal solution to solve a lot of boost leaks and reliability issues there especially with the less supported platforms

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner MegaDork
8/21/24 1:28 p.m.

In reply to Dusterbd13-michael :

For the eBay kits, probably a lack of fabrication skills - plus the pipes don't actually meet up in some cases. There are always potential installation difficulties, I don't think it would be possible to install one of our one-piece silicone IC pipes if it were rigid.

 

Toyman!
Toyman! MegaDork
8/21/24 1:29 p.m.

In reply to Dusterbd13-michael :

Engines move a lot. Tigged aluminum would end up cracking without some kind of flexible coupling. 

No Time
No Time UberDork
8/21/24 1:40 p.m.

Any room for a top mount inter cooler to take advantage of the hood vent/extractor (not sure if they are functional or if space is even available under it. )

Toyman!
Toyman! MegaDork
8/21/24 1:51 p.m.

In reply to No Time :

I don't think there is enough room between the engine and hood, not to mention the vent is a fake chunk of plastic. 

The other issue is the guys who have made them working vents have problems with the sparkplug holes filling up with water. 

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner MegaDork
8/21/24 2:00 p.m.
Toyman! said:

In reply to Dusterbd13-michael :

Engines move a lot. Tigged aluminum would end up cracking without some kind of flexible coupling. 

Duh. That too. 

Dusterbd13-michael
Dusterbd13-michael MegaDork
8/21/24 2:09 p.m.
Keith Tanner said:
Toyman! said:

In reply to Dusterbd13-michael :

Engines move a lot. Tigged aluminum would end up cracking without some kind of flexible coupling. 

Duh. That too. 

I had been assuming silicone couplers at both ends. But reducing the number to Two versus four or some other number greater than two. We'll take my Miata for example. Currently from the turbine Outlet to the intercooler I have four different couplers. With a little bit of effort and a TIG welder I can get that down to two one at the turbine Outlet and one at the intercooler Inlet. Wouldn't that be enough to account for engine movement and Chassis movement independent of one another?

Boost_Crazy
Boost_Crazy SuperDork
8/21/24 2:14 p.m.

In reply to Toyman! :

Be sure to build a support brace for the turbo. That should greatly extend the life of that manifold. It would probably also be good to make some relief cuts into the flange to allow for thermal expansion. 

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner MegaDork
8/21/24 2:19 p.m.

In reply to Boost_Crazy :

Braces can do non-intuitive things with expansion. We had a brace on our Mazdaspeed Miata downpipe and they cracked. Took it off, no more cracks. Had the same experience with the BBR kit for the ND. 

100% on cutting that flange. 

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner MegaDork
8/21/24 2:22 p.m.
Dusterbd13-michael said:
Keith Tanner said:
Toyman! said:

In reply to Dusterbd13-michael :

Engines move a lot. Tigged aluminum would end up cracking without some kind of flexible coupling. 

Duh. That too. 

I had been assuming silicone couplers at both ends. But reducing the number to Two versus four or some other number greater than two. We'll take my Miata for example. Currently from the turbine Outlet to the intercooler I have four different couplers. With a little bit of effort and a TIG welder I can get that down to two one at the turbine Outlet and one at the intercooler Inlet. Wouldn't that be enough to account for engine movement and Chassis movement independent of one another?

Your car is currently a little, umm, unusual in the plumbing department :)

A longer coupler might work better than a short one for your purposes.

Dusterbd13-michael
Dusterbd13-michael MegaDork
8/21/24 2:29 p.m.

In reply to Keith Tanner :

Mine will become much more normal soon. But it'll still be a challenge car. What I'm focusing on here is learning more from people that are smarter and more experienced from me and making a reliable and bulletproof aftermarket turbo car. I figure if I can learn everything from this discussion that I can before I put my car together it'll go together that much more better

wvumtnbkr
wvumtnbkr UltimaDork
8/21/24 2:33 p.m.

In reply to Dusterbd13-michael :

Samesies.

Toyman!
Toyman! MegaDork
8/21/24 3:21 p.m.

Any issues running a catalytic converter in the factory location? I know most people rip them out but I really don't want to smell like a 1960 vehicle all the time.

Will the OEM cat work or do I need to consider swapping to a high flow?

 

Toyman!
Toyman! MegaDork
8/21/24 3:34 p.m.

In the same vein, EFI Live or HP tuners.

I have the HP Tuners hardware and account. EFI Live is apparently more open as far as what is accessible in the ECU. 

Both of them will flash the E67 ECU with a 2.5 bar map and run open loop and speed density under boost. 

Why would you choose one vs the other?

What do you gents use since y'all will be the gents I'm asking questions? 

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