This is living?
This is what people have chosen over wagons?
Being tossed left and right over every uneven pavement heave like the resident of a tall ship's crow's nest? Feeling everything wobble like a gelatinous tuning fork over every bump?
Screw this, I want back in an actual car.
Who's offering 4Runners as rentals?
In reply to Woody (Forum Supportum) :
Dollar, apparently.
I think my wife scheduled for a CX-5 or equivalent, but this is what they gave her. Whatever curiosity we had is now satisfied.
Woody (Forum Supportum) said:Who's offering 4Runners as rentals?
I got one a couple weeks back. Enterprise/National, only reason I got it was that they were out of anything in lower trim.
Felt much the same as Jesse, didn't hate the electric nanny systems as much as I thought though. For an appliance I could see the draw to the average Joe Goober on the street.
4runner is a pretty terrible SUV's when it comes to road manners. In my opinion, so are Wranglers. Wagons suck too though. I hate getting in and out of them and I hate loading and unloading them.
What we chose over wagons are Tahoes, Explorers, Telluride and Cayennes lol. And minivans. And pickup trucks lol
In reply to yupididit :
What do you have against wagons? (Okay, I see after the edit) I mean, they're... cars, right? What am I missing?
I believe you about the 4Runner's place among SUVs. I mean, my F250 has other ride and handling issues, but even it doesn't toss me around in this particular way.
That said, I stand by my assertion that they're a dumb default vehicle. If you want one, you want one, and that's dandy. That's not a default, that's a choice where you know what you're trading off and what you're getting. Getting an SUV because you want a box to drive places, not so much.
Jesse Ransom said:This is living?
This is what people have chosen over wagons?
Being tossed left and right over every uneven pavement heave like the resident of a tall ship's crow's nest? Feeling everything wobble like a gelatinous tuning fork over every bump?
Screw this, I want back in an actual car.
Yes! Not all of them are like a 4 runner. Put your butt in some of the better riding ones. And they will spoil you. Toyota doesn't even try.
Plus if you need to tow your race car or anything else that is what you want. Finally if you live in the snow belt like 50% of the population does they are the cat's meow.
Sure if you want to scat around on public roads getting your thrills. Endangering others. Smaller more nimble vehicles are fun.
Jesse Ransom said:In reply to yupididit :
What do you have against wagons? (Okay, I see after the edit) I mean, they're... cars, right? What am I missing?
I believe you about the 4Runner's place among SUVs. I mean, my F250 has other ride and handling issues, but even it doesn't toss me around in this particular way.
That said, I stand by my assertion that they're a dumb default vehicle. If you want one, you want one, and that's dandy. That's not a default, that's a choice where you know what you're trading off and what you're getting. Getting an SUV because you want a box to drive places, not so much.
1: I have nothing against wagons. They just suck for me. I would never call them dumb because they're just cars just like SUV's. I also would never call wagons a dumb choice.
2: There's no such thing as a default vehicles because they're not a standard issued item. They're a choice which there are many and you have to pay for it with your own money. Wagons are a choice too where you know what you're trading off and getting. No better or worse choice than a SUV.
3: You can't decide for others what they should drive and buy. People buy what they want and like. People want and like SUVs so car companies make and sell them.
4: Its okay to like wagons. You do not have to justify your like for wagons to anyone. SUV buyers do not have to justify their choice to people either. You can love wagons without diminishing others and their choice towards SUVs. It's giving elitist "I'm a car guy and I know better than people" vibes.
But yes, let 1 4runner decide that you're right and your hater-aid is justified lol
Edit: I keep editing my post because my browser keeps posting while I'm still typing. Idk why lol
I love wagons. I hate SUVs. Then I got a V8 4runner with the sort of hydropneumatic xreas as a winter vehicle. Too much gas for everyday commuting but does what it does very well, and you just put gas and oil in it. It'll go away before the 911 does but won't be first on the block.
I love wagons, have had a ton of them in the past. That being said, I love my Land Cruiser. It holds so much stuff! Like 8 wheels for my 911 AND 6 race tires for the 911, at the same time. It's got a real transfer case with low range 4wd for driving on the fun trails here or plowing through the occasional 28" snow storm. I can't stand the gas mileage it gets, but it gets a pass on that because of all the other stuff that it does so well....
I've had several 4Runners as rentals, and they do have pretty terrible roads manners. There are much better driving SUVs out there for sure! That said, the Toyota is probably better off-roading than any of the tall car SUVs. Just like a Jeep, you put up with the awful street driving for the off road abilities.
There are lots of people that prefer a vehicle that drives like a truck, so they wouldn't mind the 4Runner. I'm not one of those people, so if I needed a SUV I'd be shopping for something else.
I think the 4Runner is actually one of the few honest SUV's. It isn't just a tall wagon or a tougher looking minivan. It is one of the few that is very good off road- at the expense of being good on road, as you may have noticed. Try a Highlander, and it's a much better car- because it's built much more like a car than a truck. A true wagon is an even better car, because it is one. Which makes it a worse truck. I own a Legacy GT wagon. It is much, much more fun to drive than my wife's Telluride. It holds a lot more than a typical car, but can't touch the Telluride in people or cargo capacity. The Telluride looks like a truck, does good in the snow, but is not a true off road vehicle. But since my wife isn't looking to blast down canyon roads or tackle the Rubicon, it works well for her wants and needs.
In reply to Boost_Crazy :
Honest is the best word to describe them. They make no apologies for being a truck, unlike the car based cute utes with all the disadvantages of a truck but few of the advantages.
I actually kinda like 4Runners because you sit in them close to like in a car, which means my upper back doesn't scream in pain from sitting bolt upright, and my legs don't go numb below the knees from sitting on my thighs and not my butt.
In reply to yupididit :
I agree with everything you said except that I feel manufacturers (and ad agencies) have worked very hard to make folks who aren't that engaged assume they should get an SUV unless they have a reason not to. That's the essence of a default.
I think our options are diminished because of this, and that we are on average more wasteful and less safe (if most people are in the same bigger vehicles they haven't gained anything and the rest of us have lost; nobody wins an arms race but the dealers). That's my grouse, not anybody choosing an SUV specifically.
I'm genuinely angry about the situation, but it is in no way my place to tell anyone what to drive, or that they're wrong for what they pick, and I apologize for any such implication.
In reply to Jesse Ransom :
If everyone was buying wagons instead of cars, suvs and trucks the the manufacturers would definitely make them. They want our money and if our money said 'wagons' their would be more wagon choices. Our money do not say that. Only 11 or so folks on GRM and the few thousand people who buy those E63 AMG wagons.
In reply to yupididit :
Except the "focus groups " that tell the dealers what the public wants, is the same folks that ... well, it goes downhill from there! They have absolutely no clue what the average person wants. Nor care.
In reply to Jesse Ransom :
Sounds like you've never driven a truck.
Before the term SUV was ever a part of "normal " conversation, folks that needed a wagon, had a lot of choices. One of them was hauling a bunch of kids. Vans also were pressed into action, but were gas hogs. Enter the mini van, during the gas crunch days. That's about when the term "soccer moms " came out. Soccer moms did NOT want to be seen in a boring station wagon, so they flocked to the mini van. Then the mini van became the "soccer mom van, and they did NOT want to be seen in one!
So, blame soccer mom's vanity
My father has had a LS430 and now an LS460 as his daily drivers for many years now. He tows his drag car to the track with his 2000 f250 v10 camper special. He also has a 69 road runner- all that to say, he's an automotive nut.
Earlier this summer he drove a rental 4Runner all over the western US from Yosemite to Montana and points beyond. I'm fairly certain it was over 3000 miles. Now the same guy who has been making fun of 4Runners for a decade is on the hunt to buy one as his new daily driver. Funny enough, his wife has a new Lexus RX suv and he prefers the 4Runner.
With that all said- cars are to me are like jeans- there are different styles because while they all cover your junk-each of us have our on preferences on how they do so.
Best thing a guy can do with a 4Runner and their ilk is lose about 40 lbs per corner of unsprung weight. A nice set of 215/70R15s can transform them...well, to a less objectionable thing, anyway.
Massive wheels and tires are the work of the fashion devil.
03Panther said:Before the term SUV was ever a part of "normal " conversation, folks that needed a wagon, had a lot of choices. One of them was hauling a bunch of kids. Vans also were pressed into action, but were gas hogs. Enter the mini van, during the gas crunch days. That's about when the term "soccer moms " came out. Soccer moms did NOT want to be seen in a boring station wagon, so they flocked to the mini van. Then the mini van became the "soccer mom van, and they did NOT want to be seen in one!
So, blame soccer mom's vanity
It's always been a seating position thing as well, not to mention that the 2nd gen explorers could be down right luxurious compared to the basic trucks and the wagons of the world. At the time you either bought a "luxury"'car or a work truck or mostly basic family car.
Ford brings out the 2nd gen explorer with perforated power leather seats, sunroofs, alloys and all the above, and then give it a seating position far above traffic that just made you FEEL safer.
it worked.
03Panther said:In reply to yupididit :
Except the "focus groups " that tell the dealers what the public wants, is the same folks that ... well, it goes downhill from there! They have absolutely no clue what the average person wants. Nor care.
It's not that simple.
The most visible example of when an automaker tried to tell people what they wanted to buy was when Ford wanted to slot a new model line into their offerings and created Edsel. What that name means today is proof of how well that works.
If people didn't want 'em, they wouldn't buy 'em.
Many were increasingly of the opinion that they'd all made a big mistake coming down from the trees in the first place, and some said that even the trees had been a bad move, and that no-one should ever have left the oceans.
Do you ever get that one dream where you're going too fast around a corner on a bike and your leg kicks out? It's now a truck for me.
It's been twenty years, but the service writer needed to deliver a Buick Park Avenue Ultra to an old lady so I followed in a new Suburban or Yukon. It was a pretty evenly matched race and we got up to about 90 but ever since --no joke-- I have occasionally had bad dreams about being in a truck that was about to tip over.
That one driving experience is the main reason I've never gotten a truck or true truck-based SUV.
EDIT: you not only feel safer, but at least up until the last time I checked a few years ago, the small SUV segment was the safest one to be in, considering traffic deaths.
This is what I found with my 4runner, and I realized that it would happily last the rest of my life while forever giving me 15mpg was not something I wanted. The outdoor crowd loves to throw dumb little ladders on the back and a roof basket, big noisy mud tires just to go camping down a gravel road that a Rav4 could easily drive down.
The nail in the coffin was when we rented a rubicon jeep in moab and after an hour or so of 4wheeling, I actually fell asleep on the trail while my friend was at the wheel because it was so dam boring.
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