Looking to add one or the other the my DD/Auto-x miata. Seems like a weld-in cage is about the same price as a bar but I understand you make alot more sacrifices for comfort and such with the cage.
What would you guys do? Car gets driven on the street quite often and autocrossed at least once a month. Looking to start doing track days this year as well.
For track days A roll bar is all that is required, or at least for every group I've run with. A cage while offering more protection in a roll over will make it a pain to get in and out all the other times your not on track. A cage usually also has door bars which give protection if your hit in the side. If your not going "wheel-to-wheel" you don't really need this.
I suggest you go only with a roll bar. You can add a racing harness for use on track. I did this with one car by replacing the bolts that held the lap belt with "eye bolts" and then using snap in belts. The shoulder harness can attach to the crossbar of the roll bar. A sub belt could also be added.
Besides echoing that a case isn't necessary for autocross and some track days, another nice thing about starting with a roll bar is that you can generally sell them for around 50% of your cost (assuming you install it yourself, of course). A used cage is worth scrap value..
It all depends on the primary use. And you have to be honest with yourself about that.
For a DD that sees occaisonal auto-X and maybe spends a couple of weekends per year on track, a rollbar should be good enough.
A cage definitely is more secure on track, but it really compromises the car for any kind of normal road use. If the car's main purpose in life is being on track, then definitely go for a full cage.
A cage is at least twice as much as a bar, and totally unsuited to street use in a Miata. The bars end up close to your head, they're only safe if you're wearing a helmet. For a DD, it's a very bad idea.
Sounds like rollbar it is.
Is the hard dog double diagonal the only one that fits under a hardtop?
Fitzauto wrote: Sounds like rollbar it is. Is the hard dog double diagonal the only one that fits under a hardtop?
Nope. I have a Blackbird Fabworx and it fits just fine.
In reply to dyintorace:
How much do those run?
They're a little more than the equivalent HD bars. I think it was $700 with powdercoating, IIRC.
Most bolt-in Miata roll bars will fit under the hardtop, the big distinction is whether or not you want to be able to use the hard top side latches. I have a HDHCDD (non-HT version), the hard top fits over it fine but it's only held on by the frankenstein bolts and the front latches. There is disagreement out there about how safe that is, but I've never had any problems.
If you're going to bolt the hard top on (better for anti-theft purposes, but more of a PITA if you want to go top down), then the side latches don't matter.
The reason for going with a non-HT bar is that in order to clear the side latches the main hoop needs to be further back, and because of the sloping roofline that means it can't go as high. So you get more head clearance with the non-HT version.
And yeah, cages are for dedicated race cars that go to the track on a trailer, not for DDs.
To generalize on what codrus said - the taller the bar, the further forward it has to sit. This means it's more likely to interfere with seat travel and will be closer to your head. You trade off whacking your head for having a bar above your head. This is dictated by the shape of the top and is common across all roll bar manufacturers for the Miata.
For street use, I like the Hard Dog Sport geometry (also used by the Hard Core Hard Top) because it's less likely to lead to a head strike in a rear-ender.
DD = rollbar
Occasional track day = rollbar
Dedicated racecar = rollcage
If you DD a car with a rollcage and have an unfortunate accident = coloring books for Christmas the rest of your life!
Can the soft top be used with any of these roll bars???
Yes, it can be used with any of the Hard Dog bars. Some of the Blackbird bars for the NC and ND do not allow for top use.
Damn this thread...
I was 100% convinced that I would soon be ordering up another Hard Dog bolt-in cage, but now You People (Cue: You People meme...) have me rethinking things.
My first track car was built to be a Spec Miata, so I put in a cage. I admit that I cheated and drove it on the street periodically. After selling that car, I put a Hard Dog bolt in roll bar into the next car. After loving my caged car, the cowl shake was intolerable. I removed the bar, sold it at a 50% loss and bought another cage.
I eventually sold the second car to an old guy who fully intended to drive it on the street, cage and all. He bought it because he needed a bigger car than the Lotus Elan that he had been driving since 1974. It's worth noting that he survived 40 years of driving an RHD Elan in Maine.
I suppose that I really don't need to drive this Miata on the street, but it is registered, and accessing my trailer to get the car to ice races in the winter would be a major PITA. But I don't want to be a potato either...
Damn.
In reply to Woody:
Hmmm
I'm following this closely, I thought one of those roll bar companies went out of biz?
In reply to Woody:
Installing a butterfly brace would have helped with the cowl shake without going full cage.
Jus' sayin'
plance1 wrote: I'm following this closely, I thought one of those roll bar companies went out of biz?
Hard Dog and Blackbird are very much still in business.
Keith Tanner wrote: For street use, I like the Hard Dog Sport geometry (also used by the Hard Core Hard Top) because it's less likely to lead to a head strike in a rear-ender.
Would you feel comfortable using either of those, with a harness, on track for an HPDE event?
lotusseven7 wrote: *** If you DD a car with a rollcage and have an unfortunate accident = coloring books for Christmas the rest of your life! ***
Yeah, or you could pad your roll cage. You know, like you're supposed to.
SFI roll bar padding is intended for use with a helmet, not a bare head. And that's doesn't even look like SFI padding in that photo, anyway.
SFI approved offset padding. there's a good inch of padding between my skull and the bar.
Woody wrote:Keith Tanner wrote: For street use, I like the Hard Dog Sport geometry (also used by the Hard Core Hard Top) because it's less likely to lead to a head strike in a rear-ender.Would you feel comfortable using either of those, with a harness, on track for an HPDE event?
Yes, and I have done so.
In reply to Fitzauto:
Sorry for the threadjack.
Woody wrote: In reply to Keith Tanner: Thank you Keith. That gives me a lot to think about. Here is my current conundrum: I have a '95 M-Edition. It is currently registered and street legal, mostly stock with a few suspension upgrades. My plan for the car is mostly HPDE events at Lime Rock and ice racing with AMEC. I can trailer the car to Lime Rock, but would be driving to ice events, three hours and forty minutes each way. I suspect that by the end of the year, I would probably put about 2000 miles on the car. I have had NA Miatas with both Hard Dog roll bars and bolt-in cages. I can't fit in either one without a race seat. In all honesty, I would have to say that I would feel more comfortable driving a caged and padded car on the street than I would driving on the track with just a roll bar. But the budget is tight, and I can get a rollbar, seat and harness for the cost of a cage.I need the seat and harness either way. For comparison, these are bars and cages that I have owned in the past. The top one was a Hard Dog Hard Core Hard Top with a single diagonal and harness bar (1.75"). The second photo is the back half of a bolt-in Hard Dog Street Cage (1.5"). I can't use either of them with a stock seat.
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