sevenracer
sevenracer New Reader
5/22/12 11:28 p.m.

Seeking rotary help... again.

Bought an engine (12A), installed in car. Starts right up, but zero oil pressure - needle doesn't move at all. This is a pro-built engine that has sat unused for a year or so, never ran . The combustion chambers had significant amounts of lube that I consider consistent with assembly lube.

I never saw the engine without the front cover, but did verify the oil pump and chain were on, and the oil pump nut had the "lock" washer bent against the nut as normal and the pickup tube was in place and torqued with a gasket before I put the oil pan on. Also, I put in the front cover regulator before the pan went on.

Tried a couple of things, but no change:

  1. Disconnected oil cooler line from front cover - spun engine with starter. No oil came out, nothing.
  2. Attempting to prime oil pump, tried forcing oil back into the front cover port with a hand transfer pump and a convoluted mess of AN, barb fittings and different diameter hoses joined together. Could build up significant pressure, but could not displace any oil out of the hand pump back into the engine.
  3. Another attempt, tried using a hand vacuum pump to pull oil from the front cover port. Got slow air bubbles, but no oil volume. Air bubbles likely came from one of the many joints in the hose connection I rigged to the vacuum pump.
  4. ran engine again on starter - no oil came out of the front cover port.
  5. Also used compressed air to verify no blockage of the oil cooler (though above tests already had that component removed from the "circuit").

So my questions are:

  1. If the oil pump is primed and working, spinning the engine should cause oil to spit out of the front cover port if the line is not connected, right?
  2. If the front cover O-ring is breached badly enough to have zero oil pressure, I should be able to pump oil back in through the port without too much trouble, right?
  3. If the oil pump isn't primed how do I solve that - hopefully without pulling the front cover and or engine.
  4. I am tired and seriously aggravated at this point, anything else I am missing or overlooking? Before you ask, oil on the dipstick registers at the full mark

Thanks, Neil

Curmudgeon
Curmudgeon MegaDork
5/23/12 8:44 a.m.

The rotary oil system is pretty simple but the oil pump does sit above the level of the engine oil. It will eventually self prime but to get it to do so quickly it's best to pack it with Vaseline, Trans Jel or similar.

Schematic of the system:

This is a 13BT diagram but the only real difference is the 12A injects oil into the carburetor, not directly into the rotor housings and it doesn't supply oil to the turbo.

Is the Woodruff key installed on the pump shaft properly? That can be a real pain in the ass sometimes, I have had one fall out 4 times during assembly. (Yes, I am a little klutzy. ) If it's not installed, the oil pump drive gear can spin on the shaft.

Dumb question: is the pickup blocked? I ask because if the engine sat for a long time it's possible that a bug or something crawled into it. Don't laugh; DILYSI Dave bent a heap o' valves a few years ago because mud dobbers built a nest in the timing cover. I have pulled oil pans and found the remains of roaches.

How about the rear oil regulator? It's only accessible with the pan off, unfortunately. If it's missing or stuck open, you wouldn't have any oil pressure. Since you say nothing comes out of the front port, I sorta doubt that's your problem but ya never know...

I think your front cover is going to need to come off. It is possible to spin the engine over with the front cover off but you definitely want to 1) be very sure the thrust bearing is properly installed, even .010 of e-shaft movement will bust something and 2) you definitely don't want it to start. If the oil pump decides to work and it runs it's gonna shoot oil like you would not believe.

sevenracer
sevenracer New Reader
5/23/12 1:18 p.m.

Thanks Curmudgeon.

I didn't confirm the woodruff key was in - but the oil pump and chain looked to be installed correctly.

The pickup was not blocked, and it still has the screen in place, so I don't think anything got past that up into the tube.

The rear regulator was in place and torqued down.

I haven't ever pulled a front cover with the engine in the car, and am a little reluctant to do so. Though I would like to save a few hours if possible by not removing the whole engine.

I also talked to the engine builder this morning, and there is another wrinkle to this that I will have to chase down tonight.

DaveEstey
DaveEstey Dork
5/23/12 1:36 p.m.

We had issues with a Subaru oil pump priming after a fresh build and ended up packing the thing with grease to prime it. What a pain in the ass that was.

Curmudgeon
Curmudgeon MegaDork
5/23/12 4:19 p.m.

The oil pump shaft key is tiny and easily pushed out of place when reinstalling the oil pump gear. BTDT, it's a PITA. I finally used a spring punch, put a tiny pop mark on one side so it was a tight fit and tapped it into the shaft groove.

Removing the front cover in the car is easy. The first step: push the clutch pedal in and keep it down. That pushes the E shaft forward. Leave it like this till everything is reassembled.

On a 12A, the mustache bar for the engine mount has to be removed, of course support the engine under the oil pan with a block of wood on a jack first. Remove the E shaft bolt and pulley, remove the water pump housing and dizzy, then the front cover bolts.

Tap the front cover at the top rear, you want to tilt the top outwards. Then pull it off. If the oil pan has a gasket and it tears, no biggie. Just stick it back down with some Loctite 518 when you put it back together, use a little extra in the corners. In fact, I have put together several cars with no oil pan gasket at all, just gray silicone or 518, and never had a problem.

On reassembly, be VERY sure the needle thrust bearing and its races are properly installed! If they slip out of position the engine will destroy itself almost immedately when started! That's why you leave the clutch pedal pushed in the whole time the cover is off.

Brett_Murphy
Brett_Murphy Dork
5/24/12 11:17 p.m.

I'm going to re-stress what Curmudgeon is saying:

If you take the front cover off, make SURE you have constant pressure on the clutch. Wedge a 2x4 on it, lock it down, have a friend stand on it for a few hours, whatever it takes.

You're better off removing the engine and making sure all of the thrust bearings are back in line than if you lose pressure on the clutch. Endplay is super important, and you don't want to mess with it.

sevenracer
sevenracer New Reader
5/24/12 11:59 p.m.

Update:

So, I pulled the front cover off last night, fixed the issue and got it buttoned up again. Way better than pulling the whole engine timewise.

I was nervous about messing up the bearings, but it all went fine.

The problem turned out to be a bit odd. The engine builder intended to bypass the front cover oil line and thus avoid reliability issues with the front cover o-ring. He plugged the passage and drilled and tapped a new fitting into the front iron for the oil cooler line. Problem was he tapped into the wrong (upper) oil passage by mistake .

When I made the original post, I only had this halfway figured out. It took some head scratching and a conversation with him to piece it together.

Had to revert back to the stock setup through the front cover and make a plug for the hole in the front iron.

So, anyway, got the new engine fired up with oil pressure this time. Won't be able to do a test and tune day Friday (still have to do normal prep), but should be ready to race Sat.

Thanks for the help guys!

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