Berck said:Curious what you're thinking. The minimum weight for O2WD NA 1800-4500cc is 950kg, so 2094lbs. I'm just not sure how you're getting a rally car enough under 2094lbs that being limited to 1800cc is worth it from a rules standpoint? I'd think a 2094lb rally car is basically near-unachievable anyway?
I forget what engine it had, not a 3TC, but it was the original pushrod engine family, stroked to 1.8l per rules. Boring not allowed but stroke was free.
In reply to codrus (Forum Supporter) :
Timing chains suck? 
Pete. (l33t FS) said:Hmm. How many mod-friendly BMW engines are under 1800cc? I know you could fall over cam and carb setups for the M10s.
GRM did an E30 project a few years ago where they worked a 318is engine.
Granted, isn't that essentially Josh's car? The car he dumped the 4-banger for a 6 because he needed more power?
do a suzuki cappuccino with a GSXR1100RR Motor on some random transmission
Berck said:Curious what you're thinking. The minimum weight for O2WD NA 1800-4500cc is 950kg, so 2094lbs. I'm just not sure how you're getting a rally car enough under 2094lbs that being limited to 1800cc is worth it from a rules standpoint? I'd think a 2094lb rally car is basically near-unachievable anyway?
Correct on all counts, but that's part of the thought experiment here- trying to figure out what might actually fit in that window.
In all likelihood it's probably much, much easier to make a 2100lb 2500cc something.
Ahh, okay. Curious--do they actually weigh cars at the national events? Are there entrants that are close on weight on any category? I have no idea what mine weighs, but I can't see getting anywhere near minimum. Seems like it'd be even harder with a modern car that has things like side impact protection. Tech was (rightly) a lot more concerned about the holes in my seat and the dates on my fire bottles than they were about anything that might have made me fast. Actually, they did ask to see my (clearly not-required) novice restrictor. I explained that the 1.8l BMW is self-restricting, and that was before I knew how right I was:)
In reply to Berck :
Yep, there tend to be scales in a regroup or even hidden on a transit sometimes. The O4wd and L4wd cars have much higher minimum weights so they tend to be the ones at risk of a penalty.
The Mikakiracing Starlet, IIRC now, was a stroked 4K engine making around 195hp (remember, pushrods and 1800cc) and the car weighed well under 2000lb, I think closer to 1800.
Mad fast but you could tell he needed to keep it between 6k and 8k to stay on song. Top speed was 170kmh on gravel and 190kmh on snow/ice tires. A 4AG would be cheaper probably, but Group F rules required stock block/stock bore. I forget what trans but it was probably not a Volvo trans, shift pattern was 2/3 4/5 1/R left to right. First where 5th used to be in other words. So probably a gearkit in the stock T50 or whatever Starlets had.
When he stuffed it, they switched to an E36 M3 because they were cheap to buy out of Germany after they failed inspection, and the engine made more than enough power for gravel so it could be left alone, just trans/diff/suspension/cage and go rally.
Looks as rough as some rallycrosses I have been to 
You can see halfway through the vid that he boings off of something and the steering seems a little woggy after that.... then while at max revs in top gear, just about to enter a corner, a TCA fails and the car sort of trips over itself
In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :
Internet says 1,780lbs, 250hp @10,200rpm. Impressive. I'm guessing a cage to modern standards would add a little. But you're not going to get a modern car down to 1900lbs. The 1.2 Starlet started at 1653lbs. So, I guess, if you're going to play this game, you need to start with something very old and light.
In reply to Berck :
That is an American hillclimber who happens to share the same first name as a Finnish rallyist.
Mikko Kauppinen used to have a really nice website, uploaded videos after every rally. I downloaded them religiously. This was pre-YouTube, where if you wanted to show videos to people you had to host the MP4s yourself.
And yes, if you want to play this game you need something older. Smaller. Solid axle, none of that heavy IRS garbage. Fortunately for all involved, including me, I sold my RX-3 (Capital-V Visions of a 300hp rotary in a car under 2000lb...)
Pete. (l33t FS) said:In reply to Berck :
That is an American hillclimber who happens to share the same first name as a Finnish rallyist.
Who also drives a heavily modified Starlet... Hmm...
Okay this says 190hv and 860kg. Which is *still* impressive enough that I think it'd be worth sticking to 1.8l.
In reply to Berck :
And then there is Mikko Hirvonen and his Escort RS1800... an 1800cc version of the BDA... which you could make a clone of with a Toyota 7A block and 4AGE head... hmmm.
I heard he also drove Focuses or something for Ford, some boring turbo AWD stuff I guess?
I love Starlets, and often sorely miss my old one, but the Toyota K-series is not what I would pick if I were building a car for performance.
The basic design dates back to the 60's...pushrod two-valve, non-cross flow head. At least they have five main bearings. The little K-series is 1.0 liter, and the 'big' one is 1.5 liter. The American-market 1.3 made 58hp stock, and the hot Japanese-market versions made a whopping 74hp.
The transmission isn't even as robust as a T-50 (which becomes a weak link with 200+hp) it is the little K-40 or K-50.
The Finnish F-Cup builds are definitely a case of development triumphing over design.
There is something loveable about the underdog nature of the 4K, but I'd be looking at a 7A-G or a Ford if I was building one today.
In reply to ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ :
Is the 2500cc and up class weight limit progressive weight limits for larger displacements? I ask because Frankenstein Motorworks has the Camry 2.5l 2ar 4 cylinder in the 195ft lb/205whp range stock with headers, and up to 270whp adding his big cams and intake manifold. That in something like an FRS would be fun.
Out of curiosity, can you play legos with some Ecotec engines to get a powerful 1.8? I know the only powerful factory motors use boost, and the factor 1.8 is a complete turd. But just wondering if you can piece together a 1.8 with the VVT head and make some tweaks to make decent power. They should be *very* available in junkyards.
I tend to agree that a BP or a K series is the way to go. Both have their difficulties.
Any potential from a Corolla 2ZR? In Assetto Corsa we ran one that has an absolute screamer of an engine that makes 300whp:
MrJoshua said:Is the 2500cc and up class weight limit progressive weight limits for larger displacements? I ask because Frankenstein Motorworks has the Camry 2.5l 2ar 4 cylinder in the 195ft lb/205whp range stock with headers, and up to 270whp adding his big cams and intake manifold. That in something like an FRS would be fun.
yes. I wish Toyota had put that engine (or a similar not-a-subaru engine) in from the factory. :/
With regards to weight - my Miata was 2080 lbs in 2008 Targa Newfoundland race trim with 3/4 tank. That's a rally-spec cage (at the time), skid plates, full weatherproofing, lights, and navigation gear. It was running a bored out Miata BP. No exotic carbon parts, all stock panels. It could have been a bit lighter - mostly in cage design or with a significant investment in carbon - but not significantly.
If only Miatas were legal in ARA, I wouldn't have an E30... But lets pretend for a minute they are, because that is a great illustration of how hard it is to get under 2094lbs. If the Targa Miata in BP form had been ARA legal, you'd have needed to add all of 14lb to make weight with the 2L engine. A current FIA spec cage would probably get you there alone (so many bars, and they've all got to be 1.75x0.95). Not to mention the fire suppression system and the third fire extinguisher...
In reply to ProDarwin :
1.8 Ecotec is a completely different species of engine to the various worthwhile Ecotecs. It is a Korean engine IIRC.
Berck said:If only Miatas were legal in ARA, I wouldn't have an E30... But lets pretend for a minute they are, because that is a great illustration of how hard it is to get under 2094lbs. If the Targa Miata in BP form had been ARA legal, you'd have needed to add all of 14lb to make weight with the 2L engine. A current FIA spec cage would probably get you there alone (so many bars, and they've all got to be 1.75x0.95). Not to mention the fire suppression system and the third fire extinguisher...
Well, I was actually running a 2020cc engine. My minimum weight was 2070 lbs.
In reply to ProDarwin :
The eco 1.8 has VVT. It also has floating pins, oil spray cooled pistons, decent forged rods, variable intake runners and a valve train that would very easily accommodate lots of cam unlike it's big brother ecotecs. It's basically the same motor used in the Saturn Astra, which I think was initially built in Europe, then later Korea . It's no K20 but I'm not sure it's a complete turd
In reply to Peabody :
If nobody makes cams for them, it is not worth considering.
I am assuming the goal here is a drivable 200-220hp, meaning no dyno queen numbers. That needs healthy cams with a lot of lift relative to duration so you can move a lot of air while still keeping a decent intake closing time, and a healthy bump in compression.
The Duratec engine I just picked up has 12:1 compression and huge ports. It is rods and cams away from being a real fun little motor... but it is a 2l.
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