SCCA Race Experience

Rules are pretty open, but the rules mention 7.5lb/hp as the upper limit. And lap times slower than T2. Which if you ask me is pretty generous. That's about as much power as my lemons car will be making, and that car scoots.

One thing to note, lemons has been getting much more expensive in the last few years, and requiring the same level of safety expenses as everyone else. At the last lemons race I was told I need to put my accusump in an enclosure. I'm pretty sure even scca doesn't require that.

In reply to codrus (Forum Supporter) :

We had ITE and RS (radial sedan) I think I ran the Datsun in RS at the very last SCCA race I ran.

I also hope that they don't try to shoehorn this into the current regional race weekend format.  The schedule is already jammed; track time is minimal and delays for black flags can throw things into a tailspin.  I suspect they will though, I can't see them having a completely different schedule and series for this.

My experience in Lemons was also a $hitshow, for whatever that's worth.

L5wolvesf said:

Tom Suddard said:

The idea isn't for zero-experience drivers to get on track and go wheel to wheel. Instead, it's for drivers who have some experience (HPDE, Track Night, TT, Lemons, etc etc) to easily get on track. 

That is better than zero experience. Are they given a full or provisional license? 

My interpretation is that they aren't given any license, they're just allowed to run in the license-not-required "SCCA Race Experience" group.

One useful distinction of this vs the existing license-not-required "crapcan enduro" series is that it's not endurance racing.  As I see it, one of the problems with the Lemons model is the tension of having a group-owned car and sharing the wrenching/dollar expenses -- I've seen that cause a lot of problems with people that I know.  A sprint racing format avoids that because you can own and be sole driver of the car, so there's no need to form a group consensus on stuff.

In reply to codrus (Forum Supporter) :

How much is race school these days? 

Here are my crappy thoughts....feel free to tell me I'm a idiot (because I am).  Barriers to entry issue first.  Getting a novice permit is no harder than going to the doctor and getting a physical so if you're unwilling to do at least that you aren't gonna do everything else that is involved with prepping and running a car.  Safety equipment rules bother me, probably shouldn't but they do.  So I got my start time trial racing hillclimbs and you needed a pretty proper car to do it.  Legal bar, power cutoff,  fire extinguisher, fire suit, belt, and proper tech inspections.   Now that I'm back in Florida I went to Sebring for a time trial/track event and they play by autox rules so you can go Mach Jesus in a corvette around Sebring with no added safety....I don't like it.   Safety at track night...no tech, no bar, no belt, no suit, no fire extinguisher and you can do 150mph around Daytona because the manufacturer said the stability control will prevent disaster....I hate it.  Drivers as young as 14 can participate (with stipulations).  That's great being as how one of my gripes with the SCCA is there is no berkeleys given as to how we get the next generation dorking it up like we do.  The problem with this the way I see it (with very limited info so please correct anything I get wrong) is a jr karting program is uninsurable due to the last unfortunate fatality but we can take these same children we had driving go karts around cones in a parking lot which is so unsafe the program had to be shut down and put them in full size cars...on a track...with zero experience drivers...someone please make this make sense for me.  I get the trying to expand thing but just pulling a copy cat of lemons isn't sustainable.   Look at what lemons has become. It got just as expensive as amateur racing with SCCA or NASA,  it's so over crowded the track looks like the line of tourists climbing Mount everest,  and I've seen a lot of bad actors showing up since it's marketed for "everyone " and not just race car guys.  Please chime in and tell me I'm seeing this all wrong, I don't like thinking all negative like this.

yupididit said:

In reply to codrus (Forum Supporter) :

How much is race school these days? 

I don't remember exactly.  IIRC the NASA school that I went to was the price of a normal race weekend plus a little bit more, so probably somewhere in the $600-700 range.  There's an SFR SCCA school at Thunderhill in Feburary that's $850.  This is California, so it's likely those prices are higher than elsewhere in the country.

RonnieFnD said:

a jr karting program is uninsurable due to the last unfortunate fatality but we can take these same children we had driving go karts around cones in a parking lot which is so unsafe the program had to be shut down and put them in full size cars

I'll be curious to see what the requirements are for 14 year old drivers.  There are a few states that will give normal driver's licenses to kids at that age, so maybe it only applies there?

I'd say that the jr kart program which put 7 year olds in a go-kart is pretty different from a 14-year-old with a state driver's license in a street legal car.  Sure the speeds are higher, but the maturity and safety are higher too.

codrus (Forum Supporter) said:

RonnieFnD said:

a jr karting program is uninsurable due to the last unfortunate fatality but we can take these same children we had driving go karts around cones in a parking lot which is so unsafe the program had to be shut down and put them in full size cars

I'll be curious to see what the requirements are for 14 year old drivers.  There are a few states that will give normal driver's licenses to kids at that age, so maybe it only applies there?

I'd say that the jr kart program which put 7 year olds in a go-kart is pretty different from a 14-year-old with a state driver's license in a street legal car.  Sure the speeds are higher, but the maturity and safety are higher too.

So far what I've been able to gather from a gentleman I know that works for the SCCA is the 14 year old waiver is going to be granted with prior experience in karting.  It's the whole can't get the job without experience but can't get experience without the job. Lol.

OK, so the car has to have all the safety stuff.....cage, belts, power shut off, etc, and the driver wears a full suit, helmet, HANS etc?

MiniDave said:

OK, so the car has to have all the safety stuff.....cage, belts, power shut off, etc, and the driver wears a full suit, helmet, HANS etc?

I'm thinking not.  I have nothing to base this on other than helping run track night at Daytona and hearing why they are doing things the way they are doing them.  I'm thinking (this is just speculation) this will be run like track night.  No safety,  no classes, no anything really.  Just a way to get the membership up by promising a way to drive at destination tracks.  The way that article is written has track night vibes.  They do say safety equipment is needed but they also say the rules may be adjusted...I think they will be when they figure out the barrier of entry isn't filling out a piece of paper and getting a physical but the $5,000 roll cage, $1,000 fire suit, $1,000's of other miscellaneous stuff might be.  Now we just circled back around to club racing without a physical lol.

It clearly states in the article that the cars participating in cre need to meet the same safety standards as other scca race cars.. The big barrier being removed by this program is that cars do not need to be built for an existing class to participate with the scca.  There is a link to the rules in the article.

Yeah, I'm assuming any wheel to wheel will require full SCCA compliant roll cage. So, I think it will be much more like Lemons or Champ than TNIA.

I see the comments about how getting a comp license is not the much of a burden, but I think it is a big barrier to entry due to the time required and upfront cost. IF you have a compliant car available to you, it may only be a few hundred dollars for a club sponsored school. But those are typically only once a year for a given region. So timing is key or you can expect to up your costs significantly to go to a for profit school, or a long tow to another region's school. Plus you still likely need a tow vehicle and trailer.

Today for someone who gets the racing bug, said person can go to the Lemons forum and possibly rent a seat with a team at the next race, just need personal safety gear.. For getting into SCCA racing today, you need to buy, rent or borrow a car, maybe need a tow vehicle and trailer, plus schedule a school that may not happen for months. Taking months and not insignificant $ to get your provisional license to be able to do your first race can sap a lot of enthusiasm for getting out there.

RonnieFnD said:

MiniDave said:

OK, so the car has to have all the safety stuff.....cage, belts, power shut off, etc, and the driver wears a full suit, helmet, HANS etc?

I'm thinking not.  I have nothing to base this on other than helping run track night at Daytona and hearing why they are doing things the way they are doing them.  I'm thinking (this is just speculation) this will be run like track night.  No safety,  no classes, no anything really.  Just a way to get the membership up by promising a way to drive at destination tracks.  The way that article is written has track night vibes.  They do say safety equipment is needed but they also say the rules may be adjusted...I think they will be when they figure out the barrier of entry isn't filling out a piece of paper and getting a physical but the $5,000 roll cage, $1,000 fire suit, $1,000's of other miscellaneous stuff might be.  Now we just circled back around to club racing without a physical lol.

It's not Track Night though.  It's actual wheel-to-wheel racing.  Also, they aren't going after new people off the street.  This is an attempt to bring in people from endurance series that might only run once a year.  Now it gives them a chance to run the car almost every month (like in Florida).

Most of these 'low-buck' endurance series are running at destination tracks anyways.

MiniDave said:

OK, so the car has to have all the safety stuff.....cage, belts, power shut off, etc, and the driver wears a full suit, helmet, HANS etc?

You had to have all of that for Champ and LeMons.

sevenracer said:

I see the comments about how getting a comp license is not the much of a burden, but I think it is a big barrier to entry due to the time required and upfront cost. IF you have a compliant car available to you, it may only be a few hundred dollars for a club sponsored school. But those are typically only once a year for a given region. So timing is key or you can expect to up your costs significantly to go to a for profit school, or a long tow to another region's school. Plus you still likely need a tow vehicle and trailer.

You can rent a car for a race school, same as you can for a race.  In fact, many people recommend doing that even if you already own a car, because a race school weekend is very busy and does not have a lot of time for dealing with car issues.

I can't speak for all regions, but the race school that I went to the car you used did not have to be compliant for any class.  It needed to meet safety regs, that's all.

codrus (Forum Supporter) said:

yupididit said:

In reply to codrus (Forum Supporter) :

How much is race school these days? 

I don't remember exactly.  IIRC the NASA school that I went to was the price of a normal race weekend plus a little bit more, so probably somewhere in the $600-700 range.  There's an SFR SCCA school at Thunderhill in Feburary that's $850.  This is California, so it's likely those prices are higher than elsewhere in the country.

I've never seen it under $1200 to be honest. 

Mine at roebling was $450 I think

yupididit said:

codrus (Forum Supporter) said:

yupididit said:

In reply to codrus (Forum Supporter) :

How much is race school these days? 

I don't remember exactly.  IIRC the NASA school that I went to was the price of a normal race weekend plus a little bit more, so probably somewhere in the $600-700 range.  There's an SFR SCCA school at Thunderhill in Feburary that's $850.  This is California, so it's likely those prices are higher than elsewhere in the country.

I've never seen it under $1200 to be honest. 

I wanna make sure y'all are on the same page here.  SCCA school and a Pro school are very different.

racerfink said:

yupididit said:

I've never seen it under $1200 to be honest. 

I wanna make sure y'all are on the same page here.  SCCA school and a Pro school are very different.

Indeed, but I've never seen a Pro school below $3K.

SFR school is here: https://www.motorsportreg.com/events/sfr-scca-competition-licensing-school-thunderhill-raceway-park-san-401396

codrus (Forum Supporter) said:

Toyman! said:

15 years. That's how long ago I started racing in Lemons. I desperately wanted to road race with the SCCA but they weren't interested in new racers unless they came with buckets of money and the willingness to wade through the good old boys club's permissions. 

Having gotten my NASA and SCCA licenses a couple years ago I really don't think the process is as hard as a lot of people make it out to be.  Realistically it was:

1) get a car that meets safety regs

2) sign up for race school

3) go get a physical and have a doctor sign off on the form

4) show up for race school, pay attention, be respectful, demonstrate that you are happy to play by the rules

5) do a handful of races with a provisional license and don't crash into anyone.

Which of those steps is unreasonable? 

In contrast, the one Lemons race I attended was dumpster fire.  250 cars on a track less than 3 miles long.  Someone with zero track experience driving a 4000 pound boat panicked at the chicane, locked up his brakes, and wiped out the other car on the team I was driving with.  Later that day someone else pointed me by into a corner, then decided to close the door, then came over and threw got verbally aggressive because we made contact.  No thanks.

 

I think that under sells it. Realistically you're looking at years of HPDE before you're ready to attend a race school. You need a car that is no longer streetable and probably needs towed which means you need a place to store a dedicated car, a trailer, and a tow vehicle. You need that car before the school and you know what you're getting yourself into, or rent or go to a pro school that is $$$. Sure if you're already in advanced group in HPDE, there are good odds that you have a car that is dedicated and could be converted to w2w with some effort. However if you're a newbie or maybe doing autocross right now there is a steep hill ahead of you. Granted I think there is a reason why that hill should exist for safety.

As someone looking to get into w2w I wish there were more (or better advertised?) arrive and drive type experiences. That way I could get a taste of it and see if I wanted to commit to the car and the school. I know some pro schools run them, but they are very expensive. Maybe that is just the truth, w2w is too expensive for a lot of people.

In reply to theruleslawyer :

Not to be completely contrary but........

When I went SCCA drivers in 91 school there were several of us with street legal cars.

One entrant had all their stuff crammed in a 280Z and camped at the track.

In the 70s & 80s it was common for folks to drive to the races.

In the last 20 years attitudes have changed on this; the risks of having to drive the car to the events are exactly the same but with fewer people doing thinks low bucks it just seems more risky.

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The only thing SCCA school ensures is that you are at a minimum speed and you are safe........getting faster is up to you.

The professional schools will get you up to speed quicker but at a substantial cost.

This new program gets you a chance to take your track day car and try out some wheel to wheel racing. A seems simple enough to me.