Whoa!
STR has finished with the winner taking the championship on his last run. The top four drivers were covered by .051 seconds; all seventeen trophy winners were covered by 1.7 seconds.
STR is alive and kickin'.
Whoa!
STR has finished with the winner taking the championship on his last run. The top four drivers were covered by .051 seconds; all seventeen trophy winners were covered by 1.7 seconds.
STR is alive and kickin'.
Javelin wrote: Good question. So far the 2011 Nationals results say: ... I imagine there will be more to add to this list.
Updating...
Conversely:
Javelin wrote: Conversely: * BS - 4 cars in trophies (S2000, Solstice, Boxster, and C4 Corvette) * CS - 4 cars in trophies (Solstice, MX-5, 370Z, and RX-8) * STR - 3 cars in trophies (S2000, MX-5, Solstice) * XP, CP, EP, FP, & GP - Like every car is wild and different!
STR you could argue 4 cars, as I would consider the MX-5 and NB Miata to be different vehicles.
Also, SS could be argued for 3 in the trophies--C5 Z06, C6 Z06, and Elise. If you take into account last years results, the Viper can be in there as well.
EDIT: DS, after one day, has 5 in the trophies--Audi TT, Cooper S, WRX, Integra type R, and Mustang V6. Additionally, the Cobalt SS is only one spot back from trophies so far.
In reply to mtn:
I am waiting for the other classes (like DS) to finish up before I add them. I have noticed that the SCCA Autocross classes end up in one of 3 categories:
Lemmings: Either all one car, or just 2 cars in basically the entire class. Nobody will build or bring anything different. (ST, STU, FS, SMF, etc).
Sorta-healthy: The class may have 2 or 3 trophy cars and some other competition (SS, AS, DS), or may have some variety with a dominant car at the top (HS, SSM).
Awesome!: It's anybody's game. Multiple cars, chassis, build styles, etc all have a chance (XP, CP, EP, etc)
The funny part is, the closer the class is to a stock or driver type car (Stock or Street Touring), the greater the probability of being a Lemming class. The closer to the trailered racecar end of the spectrum (Mod, Prepared), the greater the probability of being in the Awesome category. I find this humorous as it takes massive skill, money, and time to develop a competitive real racecar and those people are all over the map with build; and it takes comparatively little to prep a Stock car, yet that's where the lemmings are. You'd figure it would be the other way around.
First off Yippee I'm still logged in on this computer. I've been logged off of GRM on my normal computer, can't remember the password and after 4-5 tries can't get the password reset function to send me a new one!
Will wrote: I think the changing tires after every run thing needs to be considered separately from the no R comps in stock class idea. I already wrote a letter to the SEB proposing that barring rain or a safety issue, competitors in all classes must complete all their runs on the same set of tires. I can see it being difficult to enforce, perhaps, but I'd prefer to stop this trend before it starts. You want to talk about a lemming effect? The worst thing about it is that it looks as if it worked, so how long until we see more and more people trying it? There is already a degree of truth to the notion that he who has the most money wins. But we don't need to make racing any more expensive than it already is. That's the best way I can think of to keep fresh blood out of the sport.
I'd go further than that. In all classes needing 'street legal' tires (chuckle, totally illegal to run on the street R comps included) or all classes other than Prepared and Modified (not street Mod) You have to run the tires you passed tech with come rain, shine or monsoon. Tough luck. I don't drive to work in the dry then when I discover it's raining swap tires for the drive home. The only opportunity to change tires is on safety grounds. If you get a puncture, cut, cord etc you can appeal to the safety steward to swap the tires on that axle only. Got a front left puncture, you get to change one or both front's, not the rears, not the fronts then rotate to the rear, just the axle that has the problem. Your tires are overheating, picking up rubber, not coming up to temp? Tough, that's racing.
If the rumor is true and Matt changed tires prior to every run, that would be 6 sets of tires. That's more tires than Seb Vettel needed to win at Spa last weekend, come to think of it that's more than some F1 cars use in an entire weekend if your out in Q1 and run a 1 stopper! Come on. I don't care if Matt won all those tires, if that's the new bar to win a jacket for missing cones it's gone too far.
It's pretty silly to assume that a "lemming" class is inherently unhealthy. A big part (nearly all IMO) of the reason that ST became spec Civic isn't that it was impossible to win in anything else (see 2006), it was that you could build a winning civic for a fraction of the cost of any other competitive cars. ES (another lemming class) is maybe the only class with a lower cost to field a winning car. If you really believed that every competitor should have a shot at a championship, these should be your favorite classes. A determined competitor probably could win ST in a 240 or a Mini, or ES in an MR2 or 944, but why would you when the path is so much cheaper and clearer in the Civic and Miata.
It's also not surprising that the least prepared classes lack diversity, for the simple fact that the cars can't be modified to even out differences. You have to bring the right car because you can't fix what's wrong with the wrong car. There is nothing you can do to stop that in a sport where classes are decided by such tiny increments, whenever one car doesn't rise to the top, it's pure chance.
I hate to argue about the "lemming is bad" thing, as there are clearly different valid viewpoints, but here's my take.
I run a '94 R-Package Miata. Spec E-stock. Total lemming, right? Well, sure, if you take into account that the car is what everyone runs. But the setups vary wildly. There are still a LOT of variables at play. I can turn the car into the fastest ES slalom machine, but it'll get boned in sweepers (lots of toe out up front, HUGE bar). Same for the opposite (small bar, zero toe up front, little bit in in the back). High-compression v. high-rebound for shock settings. I'm familiar with a lot of the top setups in the class, and they vary enough that I'd hardly call them lemmings. Same with ST Civics (I think they're closer than the Miatas). I like it because it pretty much boils down to driving and setup. Not getting halfway through the season, and not knowing whether it's your car that can't do it, or your driving, or your setup ability. That's why I didn't buy a friend Hoosiers, Konis, and a front bar for his 370z and run that this year. I didn't know whether the car could get it done. Ditto for not building a VVT Miata for STR (I don't think it could win AT nationals, but many tours, and DEFINITELY locally). I'd much rather not throw away $20K building the wrong thing, then when you list it for sale, you take a huge loss on it, because every autocrosser will KNOW it's the wrong car to buy, and you can't make the parts cost back to the street ricer market.
I think y'all are blowing the Matthew Braun thing out of proportion and looking at it the wrong way. Did it save him time from clearing out other folks' OPR? Sure. Changing tires is much easier. Were they free for him? No doubt. Can he use those tires ALL next year? Yep. So he's still ahead. I 100% don't think he gained more than a tenth or so, if that, off of that. It's nothing compared to the tire testing that the ST* guys go through.
Also, while I could easily find a way to turn an ES miata build into a $20K deal (super-pimpy showroom stock-ish engine that'd be fully legal, but "perfect", Koni 2812s, 3 sets of Volks w/new A6s, Pimpy AWR front sway (this one I actually run now), replacing EVERYTHING, ideal low-mileage donor. Pimpy lightweight exhaust, and dyno time to get the right mix of parts in for max power), it REALLY loses out on the economy of scale. Same with new tires for every run. The incremental gain MAY be there, but it's TINY. Zach Heidepriem built an ES car for I think around $5K this year, and placed seventh. He came right out and said it was his driving that kept him out of the top 3.
FYI - I'm calling it a lemming class based on other's comments. I wouldn't necessarily say that they are 'unhealthy'.
I will say that from an outsider's POV, a class with more competitive cars looks like way more fun than a spec class. Look at the stands during a big regional road race. ZERO people for Spec Miata, SRF, etc. Lots of people for IT2, IT1, etc. (At least the few I've been to). Yeah, we know the best racing is probably in Spec Miata, but it looks like NASCAR to the masses (skittles in a toilet bowl people).
Adrian_Thompson wrote: First off Yippee I'm still logged in on this computer. I've been logged off of GRM on my normal computer, can't remember the password and after 4-5 tries can't get the password reset function to send me a new one!
Shoot me an email if this is still giving you trouble. I'm here to help!
Now that the B-mod results from yesterday are fixed, I'm super eager to see what day 2 brings. Brianne Corn has a healthy lead on the field, but the battle between 2, 3, and 4 is pretty close.
Regarding the "lemmings" of the solo world- I don't appreciate people telling me what I should drive, so I try not to throw stones at what they drive either. The real story is still in how the driver performs.
That's not to say I wouldn't like to see more variety in the fields, but I think it's more for convenience and cost control than because driver X "can't win" without car Y.
Wow, this blew up while I was at work.
Just so people understand where I am on this: I have nothing against Braun. He's a great driver, and I think he would have won SS whether he used the same tires for every run or not. And I'm not trying to take away anyone else's advantage so I can win. I just don't have the talent that guys like Braun, Strano, and Madarash have, and no amount of fresh tires can get me to that level.
The point about guys like that probably having more free tires than they now what to do with is a good one. I completely understand that it's about OPR, and that the scrubbed tires will probably get used at some point next year. Yet I just can't help thinking that changing tires after every run is a bad precedent to set.
I don't think Nats are broken at all. I think that despite all the bickering and politicking in the SCCA about which cars should be in which classes, and which tires we should use, the sport as a whole is in great shape. Rules change every year, and I was moved to suggest one change for next year, just as plenty of other people have done. If others disagree, they can write a letter against my proposal, assuming the SEB decides to send it out for comment.
As for the lemming thing, it's cool to see classes where lots of cars have the chance to win, but when it comes to spending your own money, it's just natural that most people will pursue the recipe most likely to bring them success. I can't fault anyone for doing that because it's their money, not mine.
Wow..... that 2002 CLEANED UP FSP.
And i see that Per just nailed the fastest time so far on today's course in Bmod!
[edit]
Spoke to soon.... Clemens just opened a MAJOR can on the field.
Tom Heath wrote: Now that the B-mod results from yesterday are fixed, I'm super eager to see what day 2 brings. Brianne Corn has a healthy lead on the field, but the battle between 2, 3, and 4 is pretty close.
Brianne just coned her first run, Per followed with a time quick enough to put him in second - then Clemens put one down and is now in the lead over Brianne.
Per is getting closer but the fun battle is between first and second.
Will wrote: The point about guys like that probably having more free tires than they now what to do with is a good one. I completely understand that it's about OPR, and that the scrubbed tires will probably get used at some point next year. Yet I just can't help thinking that changing tires after every run is a bad precedent to set. I don't think Nats are broken at all. I think that despite all the bickering and politicking in the SCCA about which cars should be in which classes, and which tires we should use, the sport as a whole is in great shape. Rules change every year, and I was moved to suggest one change for next year, just as plenty of other people have done. If others disagree, they can write a letter against my proposal, assuming the SEB decides to send it out for comment. As for the lemming thing, it's cool to see classes where lots of cars have the chance to win, but when it comes to spending your own money, it's just natural that most people will pursue the recipe most likely to bring them success. I can't fault anyone for doing that because it's their money, not mine.
I agree - I don't begrudge taking every available advantage. But I still think it widens the gap in what is supposed to be an amateur competition.
On the 'lemming' issue, I like STX - once the ST Civic poachers are banished, there are several cars that could be competitive - BMW, Mazda, Subaru... maybe MINI. And I wouldn't rule out Jason Rhodes chebby, when it is done. STX is under developed - who knows?
This was not my year, but I want to go to nats - I just don't want the whole thing to turn into a tire budget war.
oldsaw wrote:Tom Heath wrote: Now that the B-mod results from yesterday are fixed, I'm super eager to see what day 2 brings. Brianne Corn has a healthy lead on the field, but the battle between 2, 3, and 4 is pretty close.Brianne just coned her first run, Per followed with a time quick enough to put him in second - then Clemens put one down and is now in the lead over Brianne. Per is getting closer but the fun battle is between first and second.
Yeah, BM is turning into a real nail-biter! It'll be interesting to see what happens when Brianne gets a clean run.
92CelicaHalfTrac wrote: Wow..... that 2002 CLEANED UP FSP.
I was really hoping to see the FSP trophy come back to Colorado. First and Second in FSP and First and Second in FSPL. That car is awesome and the owner is about as smart a car guy as you'll ever meet and a really nice guy too. He's given me so much help already building my FSP car.
fast_eddie_72 wrote:92CelicaHalfTrac wrote: Wow..... that 2002 CLEANED UP FSP.I was really hoping to see the FSP trophy come back to Colorado. First and Second in FSP and First and Second in FSPL. That car is awesome and the owner is about as smart a car guy as you'll ever meet and a really nice guy too. He's given me so much help already building my FSP car.
Heh, i was rooting hard for the Purple People Eater Protege for the same reasons... he's helped me a bit. 
Brianne just dipped into the 57s.
bludroptop wrote: This was not my year, but I want to go to nats - I just don't want the whole thing to turn into a tire budget war.
Go anyway. If you're an avid SCCA autocrosser, it's a tremendous amount of fun and a profound learning experience. Drive the best you can, study faster drivers (in your class) and look at their car set-up; impound can reveal a lot.
The tire budget issue is really a non-issue. You can scrape the OPR off your tires in lieu of buying multiple sets. It's more effort, but cheaper.
92CelicaHalfTrac wrote: Heh, i was rooting hard for the Purple People Eater Protege for the same reasons... he's helped me a bit.
I have yet to meet an FSP driver who isn't pretty cool. Can't wait to start running.
oldsaw wrote:bludroptop wrote: This was not my year, but I want to go to nats - I just don't want the whole thing to turn into a tire budget war.Go anyway. If you're an avid SCCA autocrosser, it's a tremendous amount of fun and a profound learning experience. Drive the best you can, study faster drivers (in your class) and look at their car set-up; impound can reveal a lot. The tire budget issue is really a non-issue. You can scrape the OPR off your tires in lieu of buying multiple sets. It's more effort, but cheaper.
+1.
I've been to Nationals twice; the first time as a tire warmer for Per in GS in his (perfect?) MINI. It was about as prepared as one could ask for; the perfect example of a "lemming" car. Per was able to get 4th and I got 16th of a 30ish car field, there was nothing holding me back but talent. I learned a LOT about autocrossing.
The following year, I went (as in drove the car there with a tire trailer) in my turbo Miata. While it's pretty fast, it's way underprepared for SSM- ~100 horsepower short and ~200 pounds too heavy. I finished mid-pack and learned a lot again.
My take away message? It's still 90% driver, 10% car. The competition is more fun than the trophy. (At least that's what I tell myself. 
)
Finished third! Went faster on my last run--but it was pretty dirty. All-in-all, I felt like both the car and the driver were in the ballpark--but need more time in the seat.
This was my fourth autocross in over a year..and that BMod car requires a little more familiarity than that.
that said--great competition and I've got a to-do list a few pages long.
Now for the 24 hour drive home
Holy lead in ESP.
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