"The Tire Rack SCCA National Solo Series and the Solo Events Board have announced the addition of several supplemental classes for the 2012 season. These classes, dubbed “Road Tire” or RT, are designed to give competitors who wish to compete within the Stock Category rule set, but do so on traditional street tires, a place to play. The classes will follow the existing Stock class rules, but limit the tire options to those with a 140 or higher tread wear rating."
Prediction: The RT classes will be more popular than Stock, displacing them within 3 seasons.
Great news for autocrossers everywhere!
I just checked my scca region's forum, and it doesn't look like we will have an RT class locally. Bummer, I was hoping I wouldn't have to buy another set of R Comps after I burn through the ones I have now.
In reply to Yavuz:
Did your region have a Street Tire Stock PAX class? We had that in Philly last year for the first time and it proved to be popular.
As Dave hinted in the last paragraph, the potential is there for a 140TW rule to make it into Stock, but the numbers need to justify it, so if if this is what you want, show up!
I like this idea. To me, a car is not "stock" if it's sitting on R-compound slicks.
The club I run with doesn't have classes; we have time multipliers. R-compound tires add several seconds to your elapsed time for purposes of determining winners. (Likewise, weight can subtract seconds, horsepower can add them, etc.)
Javelin wrote: Prediction: The RT classes will be more popular than Stock, displacing them within 3 seasons. Great news for autocrossers everywhere!
Only if the classes are well attended at the National events. If you support the concept, do your part -
http://www.scca.com/solo/content.cfm?cid=44511&tag=60
In reply to bludroptop:
I am for this, not only from a particpation standpoint, but from a safety standpoint. Race tires are much stickier than they were when the R-tire in Stock tire rule was created. DOT R-tires, stickier than full race rubber of yesteryear, coupled with soft suspensions equals trouble.
Unfortunately, I am in FSP and hooked on race rubber. R-tires are like crack. They are expensive, but they are oh so addictive. I don't think I could ever go back to street tires. I have Kumho Ecsta XSs on my old Charger 2.2 FSP car and driving on them is like driving on ice compared to my V710s.
About time. We've had such a class here in Detroit (non-SCCA) for longer than I've lived here.
And yes, ALL the street tire classes are more popular than R classes.
Heck, all of the best street tires are stickier than any DOT R tires through the early 90s. In fact, for a long time, there was no such thing as a DOT R tire.
So why don't folks like R-tires? Is it the expense to stay competitive, or some other reason?
I liked them when I was into autox.......transformed the handling of the car they were on (Chevy Cavalier Z24) and made it somewhat competitive locally.
It's just a prediction at this point (and granted, street tire tech is pretty good today) but if this supplemental gains any more traction (ha), I think you'll see expensive tires made for the class start to appear. So then you'll have the choice of a spendy tire to run in street tire class, and an equally spendy tire to run in an R-friendly class.
Also IMHO, let's say that somewhere down the road that stock means stock and no more R-tires. I think the Solo stock class committee will be busy reclassing cars. Cars that were competitive with the addition of R's will no longer be and may have to move to another class.
Interesting times ahead, quite possibly.
How many possible classes are there nowadays??? I remember the old days where there was just S/SP/P/M....................
Not a bad idea - I doubt tire costs will go down, but at least it'll be easier to drive to an event, air up the tires, compete, air down the tires, then drive home.
Is the SCCA reserving the right to disqualify individual models of tires? I seem to recall the TW rating is self-tested, so there might be some incentive on the tire company's part to claim a higher treadwear rating than is realistic.
In reply to orphancars:
I love R tires. But very much understand that there are a large amount of folk who don't want multiple sets of tires. If they can drive to an event, empty the trunk, have fun, and go home, that's better than trailering or carrying/changing tires.
IMHO, the cost per run for streets (more expensive outlay) is close to the Rs (less durable), or it's so close not to be a big issue.
But count the total number of people who autocross, and compare that with ones who take it so seriously that they go to national events all over the place or the national championship. I think the more casual are far, far higher in number...
alfadriver wrote: In reply to orphancars: I love R tires. But very much understand that there are a large amount of folk who don't want multiple sets of tires. If they can drive to an event, empty the trunk, have fun, and go home, that's better than trailering or carrying/changing tires. IMHO, the cost per run for streets (more expensive outlay) is close to the Rs (less durable), or it's so close not to be a big issue. But count the total number of people who autocross, and compare that with ones who take it so seriously that they go to national events all over the place or the national championship. I think the more casual are far, far higher in number...
What car are you finding cheaper HoHos for than ST-spec 140 tires?
I'm just a bystander here, since i don't own anything that would be Stock Class legal, but R-Comps for the Escort in particular were MASSIVELY more expensive than ST-legal rubber would have been.
eastsidemav wrote: Not a bad idea - I doubt tire costs will go down, but at least it'll be easier to drive to an event, air up the tires, compete, air down the tires, then drive home. Is the SCCA reserving the right to disqualify individual models of tires? I seem to recall the TW rating is self-tested, so there might be some incentive on the tire company's part to claim a higher treadwear rating than is realistic.
Not if you compete. Make 140 tread wear required in stock class, and you will get guys (and I'll be one of them) who go out and buy a brand new set of street tires, shave them, trailer them to the race, take off the "normal" streets, mount the shaved stickers up, and race. Never mind probably having another set for rains.
I see no cost savings or ease.
If you want to be able to show up to an event, air up your street tires, race in stock class, air down and drive home, you can do that now. You just won't be competitive.
Make street tires required, and soon you'll get threads on internet forums about people who want to ban shaving street tires from stock, etc.
orphancars wrote: So why don't folks like R-tires? Is it the expense to stay competitive, or some other reason? I liked them when I was into autox.......transformed the handling of the car they were on (Chevy Cavalier Z24) and made it somewhat competitive locally. It's just a prediction at this point (and granted, street tire tech is pretty good today) but if this supplemental gains any more traction (ha), I think you'll see expensive tires made for the class start to appear. So then you'll have the choice of a spendy tire to run in street tire class, and an equally spendy tire to run in an R-friendly class. Also IMHO, let's say that somewhere down the road that stock means stock and no more R-tires. I think the Solo stock class committee will be busy reclassing cars. Cars that were competitive with the addition of R's will no longer be and may have to move to another class. Interesting times ahead, quite possibly. How many possible classes are there nowadays??? I remember the old days where there was just S/SP/P/M....................
Currently: Stock (DOT R-comps). Street Touring (with various sub-classes, STC, STF, STS, STX & STU - these are the TW140 classes). Street Modified (DOT R-comps). Street Prepared (DOT R-Comps). Prepared (non-DOT Race Tries) and Modified (non-DOT Race tires).
The classing issue and likely shake-up is something the street-tire proponents seem to care little about, but something the SEB and SAC cares a great deal about, thus the rather vocal dischord between the groups.
I've already seen a suggestion to disallow the Elise for the RT class as it could potentially be a serious over-dog vs. similar Super Stock classed cars.
Gimp's comment is exactly why the whole ST-Stock arguement is difficult for some to accept. The guys willing to spend the extra money to win will still do so. They will test tires. They will have full-depth wet sets. Shaved dry sets for cool temps. Shaved dry sets for hot temps. Tires that work better on concrete and some that work better on pavement. How is it possible to rule against this?
What a lot of serious guys like about the current rules is it makes the tire choice a non-issue. Since the A6 is basically a spec-tire, they don't have to worry about what tire to run, just setting the car up for a specific conditions that day.
I know one guy who ran a ES Miata last year in our local ST-Stock class (now RT). This year, he's going back to R-comps. Partly because they're more fun and partly (mostly, I suspect) because he got a good deal on set of used V710's. He actually says he prefers the feel of the 710 to the A6. It also helps they have a rep for lasting a good bit longer.
In reply to 92CelicaHalfTrac:
A few years ago, I could get Victoracers for just around $100, but the really good street tires were a little more. With the advent of one tire, that changed completely- the hottest street tire was super hot, and cheap... but there was a time.
Besides, two sets of tires > one set. 
DILYSI Dave wrote:Javelin wrote: Prediction: The RT classes will be more popular than Stock, displacing them within 3 seasons. Great news for autocrossers everywhere!Only if the classes are well attended at the National events. If you support the concept, do your part - http://www.scca.com/solo/content.cfm?cid=44511&tag=60
Dave has it right - "Put Up or Shut Up".
The club has responded to input and now offers what was demanded. How successful this becomes is totally dependent on the long term actions of those who protested and prevailed.
I hope the program succeeds but have serious doubts it will level the playing field to the extent people hope.
alfadriver wrote: About time. We've had such a class here in Detroit (non-SCCA) for longer than I've lived here. And yes, ALL the street tire classes are more popular than R classes.
Non-SCCA? I've been racing the Detroit SCCA events since the mid-90's when "t" classes started. They still have them. They're great! It's a big help to the beginner and folks on a budget. The other clubs have similar ones IIRC.
I run in Street Touring - pretty competitively. I have two sets of tires. I get 200-250+ runs from a set, with virtually no street miles. 3000# car.
That's potentially 500 runs for the cost of one set of Hoosiers.
Street tires are cheaper, by a wide margin, even as you get closer to the pointy end of the competitive spending curve.
The proposal is aimed at getting more people to go to national level events. Local regions mostly have some sort of street tire PAX class already.
The burning question is - how many of those locals will trek to a National Tour event now that they don't have to pony up for r-comps.
A bunch, I hope.
The whole overdog/underdog thing will sort itself out over time.
Gearheadotaku wrote:alfadriver wrote: About time. We've had such a class here in Detroit (non-SCCA) for longer than I've lived here. And yes, ALL the street tire classes are more popular than R classes.Non-SCCA? I've been racing the Detroit SCCA events since the mid-90's when "t" classes started. They still have them. They're great! It's a big help to the beginner and folks on a budget. The other clubs have similar ones IIRC.
I moved here in 1990, and know the clubs of the DCSCC has had a street tire class before that.
I've gone back and forth on this one. (And, in "thinking out loud" on here, accidentally started a multi-page thread on R comps vs. Non R comps in stock classes) At one point I actually gave some thought to buying R comps and a trailer to lug them behind my Miata. I also gave some thought to a "lessor" R Comp like an R888 that could be carefully driven to most events. The long and short of it is its just too much expense for a weekend autocrosser. I had pretty much resigned myself to buying some Star Specs, running them full tread, daily driving on them and getting walloped if somebody decided to lug along some R comps. This rule change allows me to compete, not necessarily win, but at least compete. I'm assuming that some of the above statements are true and the "big spender/hard core" are going to have dedicated street compound race tires just like they have "dedicated" r comps. They are probably going to be shaved, have a rain set, have different compounds for surfaces, etc. Assuming we are equal drivers (and that's a wild assumption, I still have a long ways to go as a driver), with their perfectly prepared car and perfectly chosen tires, they are still probably going to beat an equal driver on full tread, daily driven street tires 8 or 9 out of 10 times. I'm totally ok with that. But the gap between my year old, full tread Star Specs and their perfectly matched, shaved tires is going to be WAY less than the difference between those same tires and a set of Hoosiers. All I'm really looking for is that 1 or 2 times out of 10 when my best day driving corresponds with their worst day driving and I can overcome the spending gap with skill/luck/whatever you want to call it. That's why I like this rule change.
bludroptop wrote: Street tires are cheaper, by a wide margin
As GRM pointed out, the RS3's were almost a second quicker on a minute course over many other tires, and are the cheapest. So I'd agree, you can buy a LOT of street tires for the price of an r-compound. Hoosier's ain't cheap!
Gimp wrote: Not if you compete. Make 140 tread wear required in stock class, and you will get guys (and I'll be one of them) who go out and buy a brand new set of street tires, shave them, trailer them to the race, take off the "normal" streets, mount the shaved stickers up, and race. Never mind probably having another set for rains. I see no cost savings or ease. If you want to be able to show up to an event, air up your street tires, race in stock class, air down and drive home, you can do that now. You just won't be competitive. Make street tires required, and soon you'll get threads on internet forums about people who want to ban shaving street tires from stock, etc.
Lots of truth here. I don't think taking R-comps out of stock will give dramatic cost savings. It will depend in part on the car, of course (size, how fast it wears the edges, etc.), but the above post has it exactly right. The guys who spend more money on tires will be faster than the guys who DD on the same tires they race with.
Also, I think it's worth saying that some cars won't be much fun on street tires. I race in ESP, but I would have zero desire to run a stock version of my Z28 on street tires in FS.
Will wrote:Gimp wrote: Not if you compete. Make 140 tread wear required in stock class, and you will get guys (and I'll be one of them) who go out and buy a brand new set of street tires, shave them, trailer them to the race, take off the "normal" streets, mount the shaved stickers up, and race. Never mind probably having another set for rains. I see no cost savings or ease. If you want to be able to show up to an event, air up your street tires, race in stock class, air down and drive home, you can do that now. You just won't be competitive. Make street tires required, and soon you'll get threads on internet forums about people who want to ban shaving street tires from stock, etc.Lots of truth here. I don't think taking R-comps out of stock will give dramatic cost savings. It will depend in part on the car, of course (size, how fast it wears the edges, etc.), but the above post has it exactly right. The guys who spend more money on tires will be faster than the guys who DD on the same tires they race with. Also, I think it's worth saying that some cars won't be much fun on street tires. I race in ESP, but I would have zero desire to run a stock version of my Z28 on street tires in FS.
I think way too many people are missing the point - the new RT classes DO NOT ELIMINATE r-comps from Stock. People now have the opportunity to compete against like-minded, RT drivers and nothing changes for the r-comp crowd.
These are supplemental classes for National-level events, i.e. National Tours and ProSolos. That means this is basically an experiment to see how much measurable interest is out there. It also means this is temporary unless substantial numbers of competitors get out of their pulpits and start entering Tours and Pros and then go to Lincoln.
rt vs r compounds for my wifes car is just over a 100 per tire diff, with rt's bein cheaper.. think i know which way we are going.
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