In reply to Chris_V:
I like your style Chris! That needed to be said.
-Hamid
In reply to Chris_V:
I like your style Chris! That needed to be said.
-Hamid
Chris_V wrote: The toyobaru is essentially a brand new 944 or FC RX7 Turbo in size, layout, hp and price relative to market. And it's the ONLY car of it's ilk on the market. The kind of car we enthusiasts have been crying for since the departure of those earlier cars. And when it finally get here, it's compared to heavier, larger semi-enthusiast cars that are exactly the kinds of overweight, oversized "sport coupes" that we enthuisasts were complaining about? Sometimes I really don't get car guys.The AE86 cost more than a 5.0 Mustang in the '80s. So did the RX7 TII and 944. So a high tech, non-shared-chassis sport coupe costs more than a basic econobox, and you're shocked? And an all new, non-shared-chassis lightweight IRS, high revving, outstanding handling sport coupe cost almost the same as an amortized, base level, live axle sport coupe and this is a problem? Jesus. I own a Mustang, and love Mustangs, and even *I* know that it's a retarded comparison.
I agree with this guy but people are always going to complain.
But at that price point I would rather have the 500 Abarth because one at that cost it will be a DD so I would rather have the MPGs and practicality of the Abarth and I still think the Abarth will be a blast maybe even more fun on the road then the FR-S (which is where I would be using the car more). Although I will test drive both. I might just buy a used Jag though.
Chris_V wrote: The toyobaru is essentially a brand new 944 or FC RX7 Turbo in size, layout, hp and price relative to market. And it's the ONLY car of it's ilk on the market. The kind of car we enthusiasts have been crying for since the departure of those earlier cars. And when it finally get here, it's compared to heavier, larger semi-enthusiast cars that are exactly the kinds of overweight, oversized "sport coupes" that we enthuisasts were complaining about? Sometimes I really don't get car guys.
Mazda builds a non-shared chassis with excellent dynamics that weighs 200 pounds less for the same price. The combined might of Subaru and Toyota brought us the BRZ/FRS/FT86 (one car sold under three brands) if that's not chassis sharing I don't know what is. You're spreading the costs over three brands, one of which is one of the largest automakers on the planet. I still don't understand why they would use a naturally aspirated Subaru engine, which with a redline of 7,500 rpm isn't exactly a screamer, unless you think Honda Civics are screamers too.
Meanwhile, Hyundai is throwing around 1.6-liter turbos with 201 hp and 195 pound-feet of torque for $21.5k.
Chris_V wrote: The AE86 cost more than a 5.0 Mustang in the '80s. So did the RX7 TII and 944. So a high tech, non-shared-chassis sport coupe costs more than a basic econobox, and you're shocked? And an all new, non-shared-chassis lightweight IRS, high revving, outstanding handling sport coupe cost almost the same as an amortized, base level, live axle sport coupe and this is a problem?
Consider this.. in 1980.. a fiat spider would sticker at 10grand stripped.. and would get to 14000 in the Limited Edition... a Z28 was under 10grand and probably had twice the power, weight, and was a more usable car due to 4 seats and a usable hatchback
I have to drive one before I know whether or not I like it. My gripe is with the pricing/dealership games. First Subaru says they're only bringing 6K of them in, then Toyota announces the plant is building 100K a year, and the dealerships are gouging the crap out of Toyota, Subaru, and Scion customers on high-volume cars so the markup will be insane.
If it drives well and they make a decent number of them, I'd be in the 3-5 year old used market at $10K. It is not enough of a second coming of sports cars to get me to buy new (and neither was the Genesis Coupe 3.8 R, either).
I agree with you Javelin... if I gathered one up.. it would be used
^ i actually agree there. I will make my decision after the first drive. Until then, I think a lot of us are just tired of the over the top fanboi-ism this car has generated. Anyone says anything other than "OMGGOTTAHAVEITSTHEBESTESTCAREVAR!!!!!1!1!1!one!" gets hammered with "is not!" The car isn't even out yet... lets actually wait for it to be driven and tested before we claim it's the cure for cancer, aids, alzheimers and infertility.
DaveEstey wrote:Chris_V wrote: The toyobaru is essentially a brand new 944 or FC RX7 Turbo in size, layout, hp and price relative to market. And it's the ONLY car of it's ilk on the market. The kind of car we enthusiasts have been crying for since the departure of those earlier cars. And when it finally get here, it's compared to heavier, larger semi-enthusiast cars that are exactly the kinds of overweight, oversized "sport coupes" that we enthuisasts were complaining about? Sometimes I really don't get car guys.Mazda builds a non-shared chassis with excellent dynamics that weighs 200 pounds less for the same price.[b/] The combined might of Subaru and Toyota brought us the BRZ/FRS/FT86 (one car sold under three brands) if that's not chassis sharing I don't know what is. You're spreading the costs over three brands, one of which is one of the largest automakers on the planet. I still don't understand why they would use a naturally aspirated Subaru engine, which with a redline of 7,500 rpm isn't exactly a screamer, unless you think Honda Civics are screamers too. Meanwhile, Hyundai is throwing around 1.6-liter turbos with 201 hp and 195 pound-feet of torque for $21.5k.
And less power. While power isn't everything, 2600lbs is still impressively light these days, and with 200hp, it should move at least as well as the Miata. AND have a roof.
And as far as i know, the MX-5 does/did share a chassis.
it's closer to 2700lbs than 2600....but lets see what they REALLY weigh once they are out.
Bobzilla wrote: it's closer to 2700lbs than 2600....but lets see what they REALLY weigh once they are out.
Good point, sorry... i rounded down like a moron.
It's still 200lbs or less heavier than a PRHT Miata. 
I can say that if this were available in 05 when I narrowed my first new car purchase down to Mustang GT, Mini Cooper S, or base WRX, it would have been on the short list as well. Actual driving dynamics and fun/$ would have made the final call.
I like the concept, but the price seems a little high. Of course, so do a lot of the new prices I see right now. Real world driving might sway that purchase vote either way.
as it is, I'm not in the market for a NEW car. If I was, this would be on the Must-Drive list. It's not the second coming of the Jeebus, but no car makes it from concept to reality without corporate watering-down. It still seems pretty cool.
93EXCivic wrote: I will take a Fiat 500 Abarth. Please and thank you.
+1
DaveEstey wrote: Mazda builds a non-shared chassis with excellent dynamics that weighs 200 pounds less for the same price.
The costs for the Mazda were paid for quite a while ago, and the engien is shared with a lot of other vehicles. They also intended to sell more of them.
The combined might of Subaru and Toyota brought us the BRZ/FRS/FT86 (one car sold under three brands) if that's not chassis sharing I don't know what is. You're spreading the costs over three brands, one of which is one of the largest automakers on the planet.
Chassis sharing is using the same chassis under a number of different cars (like VW does with the Golf/jetta/beetle/small SUV/Audi/etc) not merely selling one car over three brands AND only selling a few thousand per brand. More Mustangs will be sold in a month than Subrau and Toyota plan on selling all year.
I still don't understand why they would use a naturally aspirated Subaru engine, which with a redline of 7,500 rpm isn't exactly a screamer, unless you think Honda Civics are screamers too.
Light and small AND low CG vs an upright 4 cyl engine. And yeah, I count a 7500 rpm redline as a screamer. Did when the 4AGE was powering my AE86. Did when it took massive effort to get that sort of RPM out of my 302 Ford V8. How often Do you use 7500 rpm in day to day use? I haven't hit that in my MINI Cooper.
Meanwhile, Hyundai is throwing around 1.6-liter turbos with 201 hp and 195 pound-feet of torque for $21.5k.
And again, not ever car is supposed to be a high HP car. The point was that enthusiasts have been decrying the loss of cars that are about balance and finesse over brute power, and here you are cliaming that a bigger, fatter, less agile car is BETTER becase it offers a few more hp? I didn't realize I was on the Grassroots Drag Racers forum.
Bobzilla wrote: ^ i actually agree there. I will make my decision after the first drive. Until then, I think a lot of us are just tired of the over the top fanboi-ism this car has generated. Anyone says anything other than "OMGGOTTAHAVEITSTHEBESTESTCAREVAR!!!!!1!1!1!one!" gets hammered with "is not!" The car isn't even out yet... lets actually wait for it to be driven and tested before we claim it's the cure for cancer, aids, alzheimers and infertility.
Hyperbole much? it's a return to a type of car that hasn't been on the market in over a decade, that many thought couldn't even be made in modern form. the kind of car we were asking to have made again, and that no one thought could come from a complay like Toyota.
Here it is, road tests have said that it's exactly what was promised, and suddenly, it's not good enough because it doesn't have 300 hp and the mass of a Mustang? The complaint that it's exactly what was promised and what was asked for is why I don't understand car "enthusiasts" anymore.
PHeller wrote: but those that have been dreaming will continue to do so, and likely buy another used car for a 1/4 the price that will outperform it.
You can say that about any cheapskate enthusiast and any new car, really. Cheapskate enthusiasts who buy used are not the target market of any new car company. 
Chris_V wrote:Bobzilla wrote: ^ i actually agree there. I will make my decision after the first drive. Until then, I think a lot of us are just tired of the over the top fanboi-ism this car has generated. Anyone says anything other than "OMGGOTTAHAVEITSTHEBESTESTCAREVAR!!!!!1!1!1!one!" gets hammered with "is not!" The car isn't even out yet... lets actually wait for it to be driven and tested before we claim it's the cure for cancer, aids, alzheimers and infertility.Hyperbole much? it's a return to a type of car that hasn't been on the market in over a decade, that many thought couldn't even be made in modern form. the kind of car we were asking to have made again, and that no one thought could come from a complay like Toyota. Here it is, road tests have said that it's exactly what was promised, and suddenly, it's not good enough because it doesn't have 300 hp and the mass of a Mustang? The complaint that it's exactly what was promised and what was asked for is why I don't understand car "enthusiasts" anymore.
I think you just made my point.
The Mustang rocks, especially for the price
The new Genesis Coupe is even more interesting now that it has more power. It was a pretty nice package to begin with.
This new Scionabru seems interesting and what a lot of us have been clamoring for.
The more choices we have the better. Although I'd check out ALL of the performance cars in the $25K-$30K range if I was in the market, the FRS / BRZ is the most appealing on paper TO ME, as it seems to be directed at the things I most enjoy. (steering feel, nimbleness, low CG, tidy packaging) Yes, the MX-5 has those things, but it also has only 2 seats and very little storage room----not an apples to apples comparison.
I'm heading to the Scion FRS launch next month where I'll get a chance to put the car through it's paces. (street and on track) I'll withhold final judgement until I actually get a chance to drive one, but I'd be lying if I told you I wasn't excited about the prospect. I'll make sure to pass along my findings to you nice folks! 
One thig that you all have to realize. This car has created enough buzz such that it has pretty much paid for itself in the form of advertizing for three car brands.
Not bad when you consider that no publicity is bad publicity. If you sold stuff for a living, you would know this.
Not sure where the gouging is coming from. Like I said, I experienced the gouging when the first Miata came around and nothing like that is going on. Scion dealers would be held accountable by head office if it were the case since it goes contrary to the brand philosophy of one model one price.
The truth of the matter is that there is no direct comparison to this car. ALL other cars are an apples to oranges comparison. The car fills a niche. If enough people with the money are in that niche, then the product is a success. Those that live off the used cars will learn to love it when it trickles down. Herein Canada, where ten year old Miatas are still over 10k, so it could take a while!
Bobzilla wrote:Chris_V wrote:I think you just made my point.Bobzilla wrote: ^ i actually agree there. I will make my decision after the first drive. Until then, I think a lot of us are just tired of the over the top fanboi-ism this car has generated. Anyone says anything other than "OMGGOTTAHAVEITSTHEBESTESTCAREVAR!!!!!1!1!1!one!" gets hammered with "is not!" The car isn't even out yet... lets actually wait for it to be driven and tested before we claim it's the cure for cancer, aids, alzheimers and infertility.Hyperbole much? it's a return to a type of car that hasn't been on the market in over a decade, that many thought couldn't even be made in modern form. the kind of car we were asking to have made again, and that no one thought could come from a complay like Toyota. Here it is, road tests have said that it's exactly what was promised, and suddenly, it's not good enough because it doesn't have 300 hp and the mass of a Mustang? The complaint that it's exactly what was promised and what was asked for is why I don't understand car "enthusiasts" anymore.
I missed the joke...
I will gladly post any and all pictures of the "market adjustments", if they happen, when the car hits locally.
Scion's head office doesn't give two hoots. It's all marketing.
92CelicaHalfTrac wrote:rotard wrote:I doubt the Si would. Focus maybe.GameboyRMH wrote:You're calling the FRS a sport compact? I think a Civic Si or Focus ST would probably beat a FRS around a track. Hmmm.rotard wrote: This is way too expensive. Too bad it's not $20k or so. I think most non-car people will jump to a Mustang for that price. Actually, I think most car people will jump to a Mustang for that price.Car people know the difference between a muscle car and a sport compact, and would probably be looking for one or the other vs. the people who just want something that looks sporty...
Right up until the "clever" front differential (the ST uses the brakes as a "differential") boils the brakes. Coincidentally that whole brake one wheel to act like a real differential is why I won't even consider buying the ST.
Javelin wrote: I will gladly post any and all pictures of the "market adjustments", if they happen, when the car hits locally. Scion's head office doesn't give two hoots. It's all marketing.
I guess our local dealers are too stupid to figure out they can go against company policy and gouge the customer, then?
92CelicaHalfTrac wrote:Javelin wrote: I will gladly post any and all pictures of the "market adjustments", if they happen, when the car hits locally. Scion's head office doesn't give two hoots. It's all marketing.I guess our local dealers are too stupid to figure out they can go against company policy and gouge the customer, then?
No, you just have honest dealers. Unfortunately, this area of the country is ripe with unscrupulous dealers (of all makes). I have seen those market adjustments on Chevy, Ford, Hyundai, Subaru (the worst up here), Volvo, SAAB, Toyota, Scion, BMW, Lexus, Mercedes, Audi, and even KIA. It's equal-opportunity un-ethic-ness in Washington and Oregon. Hell, we even have some of the worst used car dealers! 
No i mean that it IS against Scion's policy.
Our local Scion dealer is attached to a Toyota dealership. The Toyotas absolutely get market adjustments. (FJ Cruisers, strangely) The Scions, never.
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