In reply to Apexcarver :
But Tesla and EA won't be standing still, waiting for this new network to roll out. The Tesla network grew by 35% (globally) the year after this chart was generated. So this new group is starting on the back foot.
And here's a really interesting thing I came across. The average supercharging time is dropping. Faster chargers are part of it, but it may also be a behavioral change as users move from an ICE-type "run it empty and fill it up" to a "grazing" style of charging. I know our behavior has changed, we're more likely to stop for a few minutes and grab some power while we're doing it.
You're totally right that ICE vehicles are dependent on gas stations whilst EVs are not totally dependent on fast DC chargers.
Apexcarver said:
frenchyd said:
In reply to frenchyd :
VW bought a Chinese EV company for 2 Billion dollars. They had to do something the VW made EV's weren't selling in Europe, Asia, or America as well as Tesla's.
Not sure that was the right move. Chinese labor is no longer a bargain and a lot of young Chinese simply do not want to work on assembly lines. ( not to mention their population is aging out of the work force).
On top of that China's government is at least 51 trillion dollars in debt with estimates as high as 84 trillion.
That amount of debt is extremely inflationary. Which will also raise costs of their products.
Those are some of the reasons so many American companies are reshoring their production.
You do realize that (for the ones sold in the US market) the MY23 VW ID.4 is assembled in Tennessee, with the batteries made in Georgia, right? And that the prior model years were built in Germany?
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a40710813/2023-volkswagen-id4-production-usa/
I mean, I get them building products for China in China... but its not exactly reshoring...
Have you been following the latest out of VW? They don't want to sell cars they lose money on. They are almost 200 billion in debt. That's why they bought the Chinese company.
The VW EV's in Europe aren't selling as well as Tesla's nor are they selling as well as Tesla's anyplace. The European press is really giving Legacy car companies a lambasting.
frenchyd said:
Apexcarver said:
frenchyd said:
tester (Forum Supporter) said:
Honda is the only company in that group that I would trust to design and implement electrical systems reliability.
Yet Honda is not planning an EV for at least 5 years. I can't blame them. There is so much change in batteries. Plus there is now Electric motors that weigh 78 KG and make 1000 hp. So the current standard of 200pounds for 300 horsepower will be pretty obsolete.
It's like the early days of cars. When every week there were new improvements.
Wrong, they are coming to market soon and are doing joint products with GM starting next year and an in house design the following year. Also a joint with GM "affordable ev" to be launched sometime in 2027, none are 5 years out at this point.
https://arstechnica.com/cars/2023/04/remember-the-ev-honda-is-building-with-gm-it-goes-on-sale-in-2024/
I wish that were true. But for one thing GM has changed their minds several times recently.
First they were going to cancel the Bolt immediately. Then at the end of this year. Now the Bolt will move to a new plant for next year and it will be updated. ( there is a picture floating around of the new emblem with a Blue lighting strike on the name.)
GM is ending production of the current Bolt. There will be a new car that shares the Bolt name. This is pretty much what everyone expected, GM's small hatchback EV will continue to be called the Bolt because there's some equity in the name.
So where are the American automakers? No ford, GM, or Dodge/Ram involved in this? What is up with that?
frenchyd said:
In reply to bobzilla :
Reshoring does not mean USA. it means North America. Canada, USA, Mexico, Central America, even Columbia is included. (Yes I know, South America).
The reason for that is low labor costs. And cheap transportation. Travel on water is 1/10th the cost of any other form of transportation.
But yes some German companies are relocating to America because we currently have the cheapest natural gas and our labor cost is lower than Germany ( if slightly not as productive).
Even some Chinese companies are moving to Mexico. Look at the property around the new Tesla Giga factory.
What the actual berkeley are you even talking about? You're talking about New mexico being really far away from Texas. I said nothing about reshoring. I think you need to go get checked out man.
frenchyd said:
racerfink said:
Any word about improving the existing (or even building new) power plants to supply all the needed energy for all these superchargers?
Solar and wind in many locations backed up by batteries.
Since they would be stationary. Simple Sodium Aluma ion batteries would be a lot less expensive
Australia and China both have seriously reduced the coal fired power plants and replaced them with renewables and batteries.
China is using more coal not less.
https://globalenergymonitor.org/report/boom-and-bust-coal-2023/
China produces roughy 5 times the electricity the US does using coal. They also have plenty of plans to build more coal plants.
frenchyd said:
Boost_Crazy said:
In reply to frenchyd :
racerfink said:
Any word about improving the existing (or even building new) power plants to supply all the needed energy for all these superchargers?
Solar and wind in many locations backed up by batteries.
Since they would be stationary. Simple Sodium Aluma ion batteries would be a lot less expensive
Australia and China both have seriously reduced the coal fired power plants and replaced them with renewables and batteries.
I was being generous when I said It would take a fair amount of solar. The truth is it would take an incredible amount of solar to power a level 3 charger. A real rough back of the napkin calc looks like a single level 3 charger would need around 30 modules on the low end to charge a Model 3 from 20-80%. If the sun shined 24 hours a day. Since it doesn't and you need to charge your battery storage, you need to at least double that. So 60 modules. Assuming good weather during the day. The standard for solar street lighting is 3 days worth of capacity for storms. Now, you won't have cars charging all day and night, so that helps a bunch, and they won't all charge from empty. So figure, what, 25% usage depending on location? Let's assume that we don't need to plan for weather, we have enough battery storage to get us through and enough dead time to keep them charged. 60 modules per charger then? That's around 1100 sq.ft. of modules per charger. Wow.
Solar and Wind. I can see wind generators along side the freeways incorporated into overhead lights or signs. On each side of the road. The wind kicked up by semi's should generate some power even on calm days/ nights. Remember wind doesn't stop generating because the sun goes down.
So using airflow off diesel powered semis to power wind generators is the solution? Interesting concept. I'm sure the inefficiency would be measurable.
If you really want to discuss the environment and being green, name a power source that wastes more land than solar power and wind power. And isn't that the issue at large, use and care of the planet for future generations?
Fission power can't be developed fast enough.
dean1484 said:
So where are the American automakers? No ford, GM, or Dodge/Ram involved in this? What is up with that?
I think you have been drinking the Frenchy juice:
BMW, GM, Honda, Hyundai, Kia, Mercedes-Benz and Stellantis have teamed up to....
Quite literally the first line on the article and GM is the second manufacturer listed.
bobzilla said:
dean1484 said:
So where are the American automakers? No ford, GM, or Dodge/Ram involved in this? What is up with that?
I think you have been drinking the Frenchy juice:
BMW, GM, Honda, Hyundai, Kia, Mercedes-Benz and Stellantis have teamed up to....
Quite literally the first line on the article and GM is the second manufacturer listed.
Also, Dodge/Ram is Stellantis.
Well, it looks like this one won't last long. Looks like many of the same things are being repeated from the Tesla thread that was closed.
In reply to Keith Tanner :
Forgot that. Man they have been passed around like a $2 wh.... umm... they been passed around a lot.
z31maniac said:
Well, it looks like this one won't last long. Looks like many of the same things are being repeated from the Tesla thread that was closed.
97 more pages of free advertising, here we come!
So... different song, same verse from the resident pie in the sky dreamer?
AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) said:
frenchyd said:
Boost_Crazy said:
In reply to frenchyd :
racerfink said:
Any word about improving the existing (or even building new) power plants to supply all the needed energy for all these superchargers?
Solar and wind in many locations backed up by batteries.
Since they would be stationary. Simple Sodium Aluma ion batteries would be a lot less expensive
Australia and China both have seriously reduced the coal fired power plants and replaced them with renewables and batteries.
I was being generous when I said It would take a fair amount of solar. The truth is it would take an incredible amount of solar to power a level 3 charger. A real rough back of the napkin calc looks like a single level 3 charger would need around 30 modules on the low end to charge a Model 3 from 20-80%. If the sun shined 24 hours a day. Since it doesn't and you need to charge your battery storage, you need to at least double that. So 60 modules. Assuming good weather during the day. The standard for solar street lighting is 3 days worth of capacity for storms. Now, you won't have cars charging all day and night, so that helps a bunch, and they won't all charge from empty. So figure, what, 25% usage depending on location? Let's assume that we don't need to plan for weather, we have enough battery storage to get us through and enough dead time to keep them charged. 60 modules per charger then? That's around 1100 sq.ft. of modules per charger. Wow.
Solar and Wind. I can see wind generators along side the freeways incorporated into overhead lights or signs. On each side of the road. The wind kicked up by semi's should generate some power even on calm days/ nights. Remember wind doesn't stop generating because the sun goes down.
So using airflow off diesel powered semis to power wind generators is the solution? Interesting concept. I'm sure the inefficiency would be measurable.
If you really want to discuss the environment and being green, name a power source that wastes more land than solar power and wind power. And isn't that the issue at large, use and care of the planet for future generations?
Fission power can't be developed fast enough.
Who said all those semi's would be diesel? ;-)
Total land use of all solar and wind combined to provide all the needed power for current use is .02 of available land.
Now I'm not sure if that counts solar panels on roofs or not? ( what is your opinion)? Plus wind generators around here are often found in cornfields etc. planting and harvesting just goes around the towers.
On Hog/cattle/cow/ chicken farms they can be placed anyplace where if they fall is at least 115% of the height away from human occupied buildings. One wind generator was placed on the edge of the farmers wood lot. Another went in parking lot near the Truck stop.
Actually very little of American land is actually used for anything. Especially the further north or at you go.
Ground based solar tends to be on cheap land going to waste. Too rocky or bad soil etc. Not productive farm land. Even that can be used for grazing by goats etc. to keep weeds down.
Frankly a lot of oil people are investing in renewables. But don't worry, your job is safe. There will always be a need for some oil. Plastics and all that. Sorry I tried to make a funny but it can be t see ken wrong. That was not my intention.
Switching to EV's is going to take a lot longer than some propose. Not all of it is just the few yahoos that enjoy "Rolling Coal" And other societal mischief makers Or those personally invested in oil/Gasoline
Some parts of the world simply lack enough sunshine and wind. For it to work. Others can't afford the investment.
Natural Gas is needed for a lot more than just a fuel. Or cooking.
Just put a Buc-ees at each charger location.
Keith Tanner said:
In reply to Apexcarver :
But Tesla and EA won't be standing still, waiting for this new network to roll out. The Tesla network grew by 35% (globally) the year after this chart was generated. So this new group is starting on the back foot.
And here's a really interesting thing I came across. The average supercharging time is dropping. Faster chargers are part of it, but it may also be a behavioral change as users move from an ICE-type "run it empty and fill it up" to a "grazing" style of charging. I know our behavior has changed, we're more likely to stop for a few minutes and grab some power while we're doing it.
You're totally right that ICE vehicles are dependent on gas stations whilst EVs are not totally dependent on fast DC chargers.
Very interesting. I hadn't considered that. Yes we have a short attention span, especially when we want to get someplace.
Would some of that also be newer EV owners with range anxiety Not wanting to run the "tank" down too far?
But one other consideration? Is Babyboomers are retired. Aging out. Dying off. You don't see a lot of 80-90 year olds taking long cross country trips. Typically that is younger families.
yupididit said:
Just put a Buc-ees at each charger location.
Really chargers need toilets, food, drinks, canopies, drive through charging, and something interesting to look at or occupy time.
In reply to Keith Tanner :
I think you are reinforcing what I am trying to say. Charging locations are growing at a significant rate across the board. We might differ in if we think of this one as significant in volume, I would argue that it's impactful, but I wasn't trying to say market dominating.
Frenchy, if you doubt Honda and VW's public statements on their product plans we are devolving into conspiracy theory level stuff. I have yet to see any indication that they are slowing down on investment in us based production. For instance, Honda is building a battery plant in Ohio. https://electrek.co/2023/02/28/honda-jv-breaks-ground-on-3-5-billion-ev-battery-plant-in-ohio/
That's a significant investment that should show their plans for the future. As far as VW, what evidence do you have that VW is going to shudder their facilities in Tennessee and Georgia ?
yupididit said:
frenchyd said:
yupididit said:
Just put a Buc-ees at each charger location.
Really chargers need toilets, food, drinks, canopies, drive through charging, and something interesting to look at or occupy time.
???
That's basically the plan of the Pilot/Flying J network. "We know truck stops, and we don't see how this is any different". They're not wrong.
I was talking about this graph with some friends, and we figure the high/low cycles are due to cold weather. Batteries charge slower when they're cold - the car will preheat the batteries if it has a chance - and consumption will be up a bit.
That is all, carry on.
frenchyd said:
AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) said:
frenchyd said:
Boost_Crazy said:
In reply to frenchyd :
racerfink said:
Any word about improving the existing (or even building new) power plants to supply all the needed energy for all these superchargers?
Solar and wind in many locations backed up by batteries.
Since they would be stationary. Simple Sodium Aluma ion batteries would be a lot less expensive
Australia and China both have seriously reduced the coal fired power plants and replaced them with renewables and batteries.
I was being generous when I said It would take a fair amount of solar. The truth is it would take an incredible amount of solar to power a level 3 charger. A real rough back of the napkin calc looks like a single level 3 charger would need around 30 modules on the low end to charge a Model 3 from 20-80%. If the sun shined 24 hours a day. Since it doesn't and you need to charge your battery storage, you need to at least double that. So 60 modules. Assuming good weather during the day. The standard for solar street lighting is 3 days worth of capacity for storms. Now, you won't have cars charging all day and night, so that helps a bunch, and they won't all charge from empty. So figure, what, 25% usage depending on location? Let's assume that we don't need to plan for weather, we have enough battery storage to get us through and enough dead time to keep them charged. 60 modules per charger then? That's around 1100 sq.ft. of modules per charger. Wow.
Solar and Wind. I can see wind generators along side the freeways incorporated into overhead lights or signs. On each side of the road. The wind kicked up by semi's should generate some power even on calm days/ nights. Remember wind doesn't stop generating because the sun goes down.
So using airflow off diesel powered semis to power wind generators is the solution? Interesting concept. I'm sure the inefficiency would be measurable.
If you really want to discuss the environment and being green, name a power source that wastes more land than solar power and wind power. And isn't that the issue at large, use and care of the planet for future generations?
Fission power can't be developed fast enough.
Who said all those semi's would be diesel? ;-)
Total land use of all solar and wind combined to provide all the needed power for current use is .02 of available land.
Now I'm not sure if that counts solar panels on roofs or not? ( what is your opinion)? Plus wind generators around here are often found in cornfields etc. planting and harvesting just goes around the towers.
On Hog/cattle/cow/ chicken farms they can be placed anyplace where if they fall is at least 115% of the height away from human occupied buildings. One wind generator was placed on the edge of the farmers wood lot. Another went in parking lot near the Truck stop.
Actually very little of American land is actually used for anything. Especially the further north or at you go.
Ground based solar tends to be on cheap land going to waste. Too rocky or bad soil etc. Not productive farm land. Even that can be used for grazing by goats etc. to keep weeds down.
Frankly a lot of oil people are investing in renewables. But don't worry, your job is safe. There will always be a need for some oil. Plastics and all that. Sorry I tried to make a funny but it can be t see ken wrong. That was not my intention.
Switching to EV's is going to take a lot longer than some propose. Not all of it is just the few yahoos that enjoy "Rolling Coal" And other societal mischief makers Or those personally invested in oil/Gasoline
Some parts of the world simply lack enough sunshine and wind. For it to work. Others can't afford the investment.
Natural Gas is needed for a lot more than just a fuel. Or cooking.
You are starting to come more towards a more comprehensive view of energy now, congratulations. And thank goodness. I'm not currently in the oil and gas business although I was for over a decade. I also have over a decade in nuclear power. And I did some time in automotive too, production and engineering.
If we have plenty of land as you state, I'd start to wonder about all the overcrowding claims, lack of cheap plentiful food and other societal nonsense. I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm just saying a lot of societal and environmental arguments are incompatible.
frenchyd said:
yupididit said:
Just put a Buc-ees at each charger location.
Really chargers need toilets, food, drinks, canopies, drive through charging, and something interesting to look at or occupy time.
May as well have clean restrooms and a wide variety of foodstuffs while charging. This is actually a necessary step on the path to mass EV implementation.
In reply to frenchyd :
Total land use of all solar and wind combined to provide all the needed power for current use is .02 of available land.
OK, so your math is a little fuzzy here, kinda like you made it up. So I checked.
2022 the average global electricity consumption was 68Twh per day... or 6.8 trillion Kwh. Figuring the average 400w panel creates at peak .25Kwh per hour, in a 12 hour day average it will produce 3Kwh per panel. to produce 6.8T Kwh you would need 2.2 trillion panels. Each panel is approximately 25sqft, or .0005 acre. So for 2.2T panels they would take up 1.3B acres. There are 36.8B land acres on earth so they would take up about 3% of the surface area of the world.
3% of the world being a large heat sink. I can't imagine that will have any detrimental impacts on climate at all.
Fun fact, approximately 11B acres are used for crops, pasutures and storage for crops and agriculture... so 1.3B acres would be over 10% of our current farmland.
SECOND fun fact: all the urban areas of the world take up approximately 3% of the land mass available. So, we know that urban areas increase temps due to their makeup of concrete and pavement, but we would literally double that with solar panels.
Actually very little of American land is actually used for anything. Especially the further north or at you go.
I mean... if you consider 52% of the country as "very little" than I guess you're right. I don't know anyone that thinks over half is "very little" though except you. Data straight from the US dept of agriculture
