Shocking Realization I Don't Want A Wildly Faster Car

In reply to SKJSS (formerly Klayfish) :

Ironically in the Datsun if you mash the throttle to the floor you'll end up with speed sapping understeer. The string theory is very much alive in the car.

I run out of talent around 300hp.

In reply to David S. Wallens :

I was thinking 200hp as well. Our newly acquired Foxbody may well turn out to be the dream car I never dreamed of owning 

What I always wanted was an early 70s 911. I make really good money but decent ones are six figures and I have a tough time justifying this. If I worked for 7 more years instead of 5 I could do it.......but man I am cheap.

In reply to ShinnyGroove (Forum Supporter) :

My DSR was 30 seconds a lap faster than the Datsun. 

The issue there was to run it properly meant it needed fresh slicks every weekend.

Also note it was not as safe as your Radical. It was a couple of seconds faster and at 1000lbs had less crush structure.

Speed is fun. I'll always want something fast.

But if Civics were RWD, I'd probably own a shed full of them.

Funny, I've been planning on building an LS3-powered ND for myself for a few years now. The thing that's the most in the way is the arrival of my almost-stock 1990 Miata survivor. For most of what I use a street Miata for, it gives me all the fun I need. The ND build would be very satisfying and I have no doubt I'd enjoy the end result (I have as many hours in a V8 ND Miata as anyone on earth, I suspect), but it's a much lower priority than it was.

But my track car is still a 500 hp Miata, and I like that. It's fun to have that much capability available, and use the judgment required to deploy it. Some days I'll take a different car to the track but more often than not it's the spicy one because it's just so visceral.

I think I said this recently in a different thread. It's why I went with the 2nd gen BRZ vs an used car with more power. I've tracked sport bikes, and even though they weren't "crazy" power, my '13 Track Pack Mustang GT was 420hp and my 135i was 300hp with 300tq from 1700-5000 with the 7-spd DCT. All 3 of those were way too much enjoy on the street unless you're into "roll racing" on the highway.

The BRZ is ~210whp, 2800lbs. At some point I'll likely do a header and flex fuel so on E85 it will make around 240whp and that will be plenty to have fun with. 

In reply to Keith Tanner :

With a V8 Miata you've got an AC Cobra with suspension that actually works, yet it's still visceral enough to make one pay attention. Your comment about using the judgment to deploy it is spot on.

I like cars I can fling around with abandon; last year a crazy deal came up on an Indy Lites car. If I'd sold off the bulk of my fleet and cut back on the number of events I attend it was doable. The issue was I knew that after a couple of weekends the fact would sink in that one doesn't screw around in a 450hp 1300lb car. The consequences of getting it wrong are much higher than most cars. 

It's a case of it would be fun to do a session in a Can Am car but I don't want to drive one regularly.

I think most of us here are corner carvers.  We like the thrill of lateral g forces and the skills it takes to maximize and control the car in those situations.  This can be accomplished in a 5hp go kart or 500hp Corvette.  It's personal preference on how much ability to accelerate we want.  

For me, Tom brought up the biggest concern I have.  I'm lucky enough to drive some of the fastest production cars available quite frequently.  I enjoy most of them tremendously.  However I do have concerns about the consequences of these things being in the hands of people who would struggle to drive a Geo Metro well.

I've been on team auto-x and cruise since my early twenties when two buddies and I were cruising on bikes into the city on I57 and they LEFT ME BEHIND at 150+... I realized I have zero control so since then I've had cars that either have to be driven hard to wring the most out of them; MKI Rabbits, Datsun 1200 GTL, 944, X1/9 and are still barely moving or are really just cruisers. This has worked for me and although I go through 5-10 cars a year I've Kept to this plan.

In reply to SKJSS (formerly Klayfish) :

Much like you I've ended up driving some really high end cars on track and also much like you I worry about a large number of folks who buy them. 

Due to the corner speeds these cars can achieve the runoff room is much less than people think. 150ft of run off that is plenty of roo. In a Spec Miata runs out a lot quicker in a GT3RS or a Radical.

When my buddy who I shared the D-sports Racer crashed it, he commented that he crashed coming off the corner. When I told him the crash started 250ft earlier it took him a couple of minutes to process this. We talked it through and I explained that when he missed the brake marker by a couple of feet, that caused him to miss the turn in point, which caused him to run a foot wide on the exit.  He's a solid driver but at that level of car folks don't realize you need to be three moves ahead of the car.

In reply to Tom1200 :

You're right.  At the same time, it's not the cars on track that are my big concern.  If you are putting your car on the track, it's expected you know what to do with it.  It's putting the cars on the street. 

For example, the Porsche Taycan Turbo S.  It is mind warping fast. It is also 5,100+lbs.  Putting that in the hands of someone who doesn't know how to use it is a recipe for disaster.

For a fun car that I'm going to take on track, at least 250rwhp and 2800 lbs are my minimums.  Since I'm up at altitude I prefer something turbo charged and 400-500 hp with 3400lbs is about the right level.  More is still fun, but at least 400hp gets the job done.  I'm not interested in driving a miata up here, even if I did fit in one.

For the street, again, as long as it's turbocharged, 300-350hp feels nice and gets up the passes without having to downshift multiple times.  My diesel Touareg works great out here.

My 924 is slow by every measure, but if I really get after it, it's still enough power to have fun on the tight back roads we have around here. 115ish hp, 2600 lbs. I have zero desire to take it to the track. On the highway or in the mountains, or if I have a passenger and stuff in the car, I always wish it had more power.

The 318is with its 220ish hp, 2800 lbs, and boost-fortified torque is even better, and it's about all I can use on the street reasonably. Highway and cruising around, it feels like what the car should have had from the factory. Unobtrusive power that doesn't overpower the rest of the experience. At the track, it doesn't feel so strong and I always wish it had another hundred horsepower.

Maybe one day I'll actually finish the LS 944 project and see if that's enough power in a light-ish car. 

SKJSS (formerly Klayfish) said:

In reply to Tom1200 :

You're right.  At the same time, it's not the cars on track that are my big concern.  If you are putting your car on the track, it's expected you know what to do with it.  It's putting the cars on the street. 

For example, the Porsche Taycan Turbo S.  It is mind warping fast. It is also 5,100+lbs.  Putting that in the hands of someone who doesn't know how to use it is a recipe for disaster.

At some point we are probably going to get regulations with power. It is so much easier and cheaper to make a EV fast that they are going to cause enough accidents to attract the attention of the "do something" crowd. Want to bet it starts in California?

I've always driven small cars and have been used to driving vehicles others consider under-powered. But, in 2007 I bought my first Cooper S and the extra oomph was appreciated. In 2017 I bought a supercharged Miata (I already owned a stock NB) to take to the Challenge. With six pounds of boost it was just right. I sold that car a year ago and replaced it with an ND2, 181 HP, and it's just right, too. The only vehicle I've ever owned that had over 250 HP is the truck currently sitting in the driveway.

theruleslawyer said:

SKJSS (formerly Klayfish) said:

In reply to Tom1200 :

You're right.  At the same time, it's not the cars on track that are my big concern.  If you are putting your car on the track, it's expected you know what to do with it.  It's putting the cars on the street. 

For example, the Porsche Taycan Turbo S.  It is mind warping fast. It is also 5,100+lbs.  Putting that in the hands of someone who doesn't know how to use it is a recipe for disaster.

At some point we are probably going to get regulations with power. It is so much easier and cheaper to make a EV fast that they are going to cause enough accidents to attract the attention of the "do something" crowd. Want to bet it starts in California?

I'm pretty sure the same sentiment was expressed in the 60s. Instead of power limits, now we have ADAS requirements to let drivers handle their cars/power.

In reply to Keith Tanner :

Especially when you consider Traction Control, Stability Management, etc. 

There will always be the dumb people factor, but I dont know that it will be appreciably different from what we are seeing with Dodge Hellcats.  The biggest difference would be the instant torque/power that you see with the EV, but Traction Control is largely mitigating that for loss of control factors. The bigger thing I have seen is in the more mundane, where due to the one pedal driving modes there is an increased prevalence of pedal missapplication (hitting the gas when you think you are on the brake). 

I dont disagree with the premise of this thread. There is a ton to be said about a slower car that you can fully extract what it has and just hammer it with near telepathic response. I have driven Miatas that were surpulative at that, the best being a DP miata with only a bit more than stock power and a ton less weight ( I want to say 1800lbs or thereabouts) . The rebuttal I will make though is - sometimes you just want the different challenge that bonkers fast brings. My STS miata was fun, but it just doesnt give the adrenaline response the Fmod does.  That said, Last fall I ran my Sprite at an autocross and while I didnt have the shaking hands after a hard charging run, I did have a big smile and laughs while hustling it around the course. 

In reply to Apexcarver :

ADAS is advanced driver assist systems, such a traction control, stability management, etc ;) And yeah, the dumb people factor will never go away.

I'm not sure I can connect one-pedal driving with pedal misapplication, but I suppose it could happen. More likely is the fact that stuff can happen really fast - making a left turn out of a parking lot onto a busy street so you give it some extra acceleration and whoomp, you're accelerating hard and navigating a 90 corner and are probably surrounded by traffic. Just the sheer violence of what should be a mundane maneuver with a little extra spice is likely to catch some people off guard. 

The thing about fast cars is that you can fully extract what they have too. You're just moving much faster when you do it, and outside a racetrack we're at the point where you can't really get there. Heck, that was my first thought when test driving an FD RX7 and a Boxster  in the 90s - they were fast, but they were too fast to really enjoy on the street.

I think my 986 base is about perfect on a back road. I can use a couple of the gears if I'm really hammering and it feels juuust about manageable. I have moments of fear still heading towards a sharp turn with my foot down. Good thing the brakes are solid.
 

I sold a Mazdaspeed3 because it was a little too much in fun situations. Once the boost hit I had to shut it down again. 
 

Annoyingly, what's fun on a backroad is only adequate in the rest of the world. I think about 300hp is what I want in traffic and merging and such. About 200-250 is all I can handle on a backroad. 
 

One day I'll get something that can smoke the rear tires at will. Sliding is fun too. But I know the fun will leave soon after. When driving (or riding) something fast, everyone is in your way. 

I occasionally wear a shirt that many of us own that has 16 ounces on it, when it fits mind you. I want a 250hp 1750lb car. 

From what I've seen at track days, the whole "novice in dangerously fast car" phenomenon is somewhat self limiting.  Many of the people who show up with the heavy artillery are basically middle aged dilettantes with disposable income.  They come to the track in their shiny new baby, which they are absolutely terrified to hurt.  They get on the track, drag race down the straights, park in the corners, and are quickly humiliated by better drivers in 20 year old Miatae and Civics.  They feel even worse when right seat instructors give them seemingly simple instructions, and they can't even do those things right.  The 10% of them who make it past the first couple track days realize that there's a big difference between affording their car and affording to track their car.  A few of them make it through the filter to the Intermediate group but not many.  The rest go back to playing golf or fly fishing or collecting wine or guitars or whatever else they like to throw money at, able to confidently say "yes I take my GT3 on the track" when asked.

I want a car that is fast enough to give me a glimpse of Elvis, but not enough to have me shaking hands with the man.

Like a few folks here I end up in some really high horsepower cars 850hp being the most I've driven in a road car and 240hp in a 1200lb formula car.

High horsepower cars are not difficult to drive; you just have to not be a caveman.

If you can spin the tires coming off a corner; it doesn't matter if the car has 200hp or 800hp, you need to be able to modulate the throttle.

I think people get hung up on the thought that managing wheelspin at 80-90mph is somehow exponentially more difficult than it is at 40-50mph.

Much like Goldilocks I think there is a sweet spot...........hence my no longer wanting a wildly faster car.

My .02 as always

PS: Should I win the lotto and start showing pictures of the LeMans propotype (962 anyone) I bought, feel free to remind about this thread.  

Keith Tanner said:

Heck, that was my first thought when test driving an FD RX7 and a Boxster  in the 90s - they were fast, but they were too fast to really enjoy on the street.

...says the man who wants to build a V8 ND for the street? :) 

A stock FD is only barely faster than a stock 2024 ND.