Suppose someone wound up with a small bit of unexpected money and wanted to try a 911? What would be the least expensive route to reliable ownership? I'm not too pick about year or options but would like it to be reliable enough for 2-300 miles a week in nice weather and the occasional cross country trip. DIY maintainable is a plus too. What should they look at and realistically how much would it cost?
Is 911SC still the answer, or has 996 taken that spot?
(Personally I prefer the 'SC over the 996, the 996 feels too.... like a goo strip on a Bic razor)
I guess it depends on your definition of reliable. If it was me in that situation I wouldn't be looking at anything older than a 997.2. Probably upper $40k range, more for a super nice or high optioned one. Maybe more with pandemic pricing, I haven't looked recently. In all reality a 997.1 or 996 would probably do fine but there's definitely more risk involved. They're also just not as nice cars though so that factors into the price some (particularly the 996 but the 997.2 had some pretty substantial styling and interior durability improvements over the .1, and the engines got a pretty big power increase on top of the big reliability increase). All of them are pretty equally DIY maintainable.
Off thread. Any topic Wally starts I quickly open to read.
In reply to dps214 :
As far as reliable I want to know that if it's up to date on maintenance I can jump in it and drive cross country without any drama. I don't think it's a worry, but if there's anything I should know it would be good to find out now.
In reply to Wally (Forum Supporter) :
Honestly, a 996 Carrera with a documented IMS bearing update is pretty dang bulletproof. Cheap too because runny egg headlights and no hips. I would find one with higher miles and great maintenance history over a garage queen with no miles.
The S is a solid upgrade, but not needed if you're just having fun. The 4S is the AWD one. Definitely get a coupe as the cabriolet is not as good as the sister Boxster. The later 997 Targa is pretty dang cool.
There's a wide range in interior options and the low spec cars can feel pretty sparse, but the really well optioned ones can be amazing. There's real wood trims, carbon fiber, brushed aluminum, painted parts, and ruffled leather all available. Porsche offers a really slick modern nav/infotainment system that can be swapped in by the dealer that really updates these. Porsche made absolutely great interior colors, so try to find something you like instead of just black. Same with the exterior, stay away from silver if you can.
A well specced 996.1 S 6-speed is probably the best 911 buy in my opinion.
In reply to Wally (Forum Supporter) :
I think that's called an NSX 
.
996 - especially the convertibles - are probably the cheapest entry point, as long as the maintenance has been done properly and not by Porsche schedule (oil change intervals are far too long, which killed the cam and IMS chain tensioners on mine). You really want more frequent oil changes and all that. The still have a bunch of parts that might explode expensively at inconvenient times. The best bet for "maintenance up to date and drive across the country" is likely going to be a 996 Turbo (or a GT3). Neither of those is going to be cheap, though. I drove my 996 for up to 500-600 miles a week once the engine issues were sorted out and other than an strong appetite for rear tires, running costs were fairly reasonable.
Anything aircooled is going to be a pretty penny. 911SC is probably still the least expensive entry point to those, but a decent one right now still seems to be a $40k-50k car for a coupe that's got a bunch of miles on it. Targas are a tad cheaper than coupes, and you might be able to find a C3.2 convertible for similar money. But keep in mind these are essentially all 1960s cars with a bit more oomph out back.
Compared to a Ferrari, these are designed to be driven every day with reasonable maintenance. Maintenance is not going to be cheap, but not Ferrari levels either - for DIYing, the main issue tends to be parts prices. There's this old joke that every time you buy Porsche OEM parts, you look for the complementary diamonds that come with the part. OTOH there aren't that many cars out there with that level of spares availability.
All of them have some weaknesses, although for the aircooled ones the Carrera 3.2 probably has the least of them. 964s used to be the entry level 911 of choice until they shot up in price, and 993s are even more expensive.
You don't say what the budget is so my apologies if I'm way overshooting it, but from a "least likely to destroy all your money" perspective and also comfortable to drive across the country, the list goes something like that in decreasing order:
The GT3 would be at the top of the list, but I don't know if I wanted to drive one across the country. Unsurprisingly, the order of models in the list is also in order of decreasing prices. Good 911SCs and C3.2s hover somewhere around Carrera 4S money for the narrowbody, the turbo look ones are often more than 996 turbo money.
I'm looking into my own first P-car and it really seems like if you want something truly reliable you either go for a fuel injected, non-turbo, air-cooled car...or you buy a 987.2/997.2 or newer.
The 986/987.1/996/997.1 have a much lower cost of entry, but with the number of weird failures and design oversights, the potential world of wallet hurt is soooooooooo much bigger. That is not to say that a well-maintained example with all the "fixes" done (IMS, RMS, AOS, water pump, coolant tank, others I'm forgetting) isn't a reliable car, but I've also found that the price difference isn't that big when you add up what a few expensive unexpected trips to the Porsche indie could possibly set you back.
I have an irrational weakness for the runny egg 996 because of the time in my adolescence that they came out, but it seems like the 987.2 Cayman is objectively a better car in every conceivable way, particularly its appetite for parts and service, and I'm very much reaching a point in my life where I want to do less wrenching and more driving...
Javelin (Forum Supporter) said:A well specced 996.1 S 6-speed is probably the best 911 buy in my opinion.
That would certainly be the best 911 buy, because that would be a 1 of 1 car...porsche never made a 996 S - only the base, 4, and 4S. And you don't want an awd mdel unless it has turbos attached to it.
I do agree with the later portion of Javelin's post though, if you want a road trip car you might want to at least take a look at the interior options, and decide if you can really tolerate the 996 interior in general. I jokingly call the base interiors "poverty spec", but some of them especially in the earlier cars are pretty rough, with lots of hard plastics that don't wear well. Power seats might be worth it just to get lumbar adjustment, the lack of that is the only real disappointment I have in my 981S.
In reply to dps214 :
I dunno, I've both owner a regular 996 Carrera 4 and driven a C4S, and I didn't find the AWD system such that I would want to avoid those models.
Oh, one other thing - a lot of 911s in the 80s and the early 2000s seem to suffer from really boring colour choices. The 80s ones are overwhelmingly Guards Red, and the 2000s about 300 different shades of boring silver. You sometimes find more intersting colours as Porsche will paint a car pretty much any colour if you pay for it, but some of them require a lot of intestinal fortitude to be seen in on a daily basis. I think my favourite example was one that was turquoise with a mint green interior or a similarly odd combo. You can sometimes pick up cars with those intersting colours at a discount, but they can be hard to shift when you're done with them.
Edit - this one probably is least likely to lose you money: https://mart.pca.org/ads/51331
I'll be honest I've never driven one, but I can't imagine it really adds much to the normal driving experience. And the system being there adds that many more failure points and makes everything that much harder to work on. If you wanted one as a winter car, yeah the 4/4S would probably be the way to go.
A few years ago I would have said 996T as well, but they've gotten way expensive recently.
Color choice was one of the things that pushed me into the 981. I was shopping for 987.2s, but particularly in the recession times like 90% of them were ordered in black, white, silver, or gray. And not many were ordered in general either.
So far what I've learned is I like the 996s. Not my favorite but I am ok with them. The poverty spec interiors are ok, I'm not picky about options beyond AC and a radio.
Here's the first bad idea to come along. I like the body kit, but am not crazy about sunroofs. What are the odds I could dump a little money into it and have an ok car?
https://hudsonvalley.craigslist.org/for/d/new-paltz-911-porsche-carrera/7320327109.html
Not a huge convertible fan but this is interesting:
https://hudsonvalley.craigslist.org/cto/d/newburgh-porsche-carrera-911/7339510856.html
https://longisland.craigslist.org/for/d/brightwaters-1999-porsche-911-carrera/7327602495.html
In reply to BoxheadTim :
I like that turbo but that's a bit more than i was looking at.
BoxheadTim said:In reply to Wally (Forum Supporter) :
I think that's called an NSX
I cross shopped the 996, 997, s2000 and NSX.
Ended up with the NSX, still happy 5 years later.
My biggest takeaway from the experience (other than the car) was that the Miata that I'd daily driven for years was really, really good.
In reply to Wally (Forum Supporter) :
With these cars, you're not buying the car, you're buying the previous owner and maintenance history.
That first one screams "RUN AWAY." The Cabriolet is the only one that's had all the big services done.
Plan on a five-figure bill to "make one right" if it doesn't have the big ticket items done. It is almost always cheaper to just buy a car that's had all the big work done than to buy a neglected one and get it up to speed.
(Classic "just because you can afford to buy the car doesn't mean you can afford to fix it" adage STRONGLY applies with Porsches.)
Also, you would do well to shop on Rennlist: https://rennlist.com/forums/market/vehicles
You get a lot more for your money buying from caring enthusiast owners.
https://rennlist.com/forums/market/1259138
In reply to Wally (Forum Supporter) :
Buy this one stupid cheap, put the stock wheels back on, have a shop do the IMS, and enjoy it for the rest of your life:
https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1999-porsche-911-carrera-202/
Javelin (Forum Supporter) said:In reply to Wally (Forum Supporter) :
Buy this one stupid cheap, put the stock wheels back on, have a shop do the IMS, and enjoy it for the rest of your life:
https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1999-porsche-911-carrera-202/
Am I missing some issue with that car other than the awful wood trim? Either that or it's going to climb a bunch in its final day. <$20k is moderately sketchy cab money. Hell for the current $16k I kind of want it...and I hate 996s.
On the OP's listings, IMO poorly installed body kit is always a red flag, but on a porsche it's an immediate hard pass. That cab looks nice and has decent maintenance history and is actually a decent color combo, but man that's a lot for a 996 cab. And it's going to have at least a little bit more road noise than a coupe which isn't great for road trips.
In reply to dps214 :
Black wheels on a nondescript dark blue runny egg 911. And if you managed to actually click on it you see wood trim and a tan interior.
In reply to Javelin (Forum Supporter) :
That car is down the road from my sister in law's house. The blue is a pretty color in person. I'm not crazy about the black wheels but I can deal with them. Everyone ignore that auction for a bit.
In reply to Wally (Forum Supporter) :
It comes with the stock wheels too according to the listing, so an easy enough thing to rectify...just sell the black wheels and put the money into new tires for the stockers.
Wally, why a Porsche? For a Sunday Driver, why sign on to a car with a laundry list of difficulties, IMS bearing, rocker studs etc? Do Boxsters carry the same issues?
For ease of maintenance, easy on the eyes and fun to drive, why not a VW Beetle ragtop? Why not a mid 50s or 60s something?
Just curious. Honestly I'm surprised these guys haven't pushed you toward a Miata.
Dan
In reply to 914Driver :
I wasn't planning on buying anything. I'm finally starting to go through my Monte Carlo and put that back together but I ran into a little money I wasn't expecting. I've always wanted a 911, I may be able to afford one, and I shouldn't take too much of a beating when it's time to move on. I could just as easily buy nothing, I've always talked myself out of it in the past. If I'm ever going to do something irresponsible this is probably the best time.
Does the car need to have air conditioning?
In reply to pointofdeparture :
I've thought of that too, maybe over the winter unless I find what I want sooner. For now I'd do the IMS bearing, and other maintenance it's going to need and drive it. I'm planning on taking some time off in October and heading down to Texas for the F1 race, I might as well have something fun to drive down.
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