So, my neighbor has three pitbulls

In reply to joey48442:

I'm betting that was directed at the general arguement.

Unsure of, but I'm betting on that.

93EXCivic wrote:

Aeromoto wrote: As long as we're quoting articles and studies--- "Several studies have determined that pit bull owners and owners of other "vicious" or "high risk" breeds (most commonly identified as Akita, Chow Chow, Doberman Pinscher, Pit Bull, Rottweiler, and Wolf-mix) are more likely to have criminal convictions and are more likely to display antisocial behaviors. A 2006 study comparing owner's of "vicious" dogs to owners of "low risk" dogs determined that the former group had nearly 10 times as many criminal convictions.[50] A 2009[51] and a followup 2012[52] study generally supported these conclusions."

This points out the problem is the owner not the dog. I think that is the point you are making. I wish these idiots would switch to something like a Pomeranian or preferable no dog.

Of course I don't having anything against pitbulls, nor do I have anything against the giant snakes that are berkeleyking up the Everglades, they're doing what giant snakes are supposed to do. I blame the owners,

As far as the douchebags switching to other breeds, I doubt that's gonna happen. I would propose instead that responsible dog owners stop buying pitbulls and choose some other breed. Yes I know that most of them are lovely dogs and all of that, but the rescue groups and trying to change perceptions, etc, blah blah blah just seems like a collosal waste of time when you could just get a different breed of dog and maybe spend your time on more important things

Trans_Maro wrote: I don't own pitbulls for the same reason I don't own a Porsche, Corvette or Harley Davidson.

Because you worry about what people think of you?

It is true that many people own Corvettes, Harleys, Porsches and pit bulls because they want the image they think they add, but that's not true of everyone. Yes, there are more dicks that own those particular things, but owning one isn't prima facie evidence of being a dick. You owe it to people to give them a chance to exhibit their dickness or non-dickness other than by the cars or dogs they own, before you categorize them.

Trans_Maro wrote: I don't own pitbulls for the same reason I don't own a Porsche, Corvette or Harley Davidson.

Yeah and no one stereotypes Trans Ams right? I own a T/A and a Porsche, so I get to deal with all the idiots lol.

joey48442 wrote: Mostly what I'm afraid of is if my house is broken into and the door is left open what will happen to my cats.

They get hit by a car, or picked off by a hawk or an owl, they run away and live happily ever after or if they are like my cats they sit on the porch because the great outdoors scares the hell out of them.

Point is, with or without those dogs next door if your cats got out they are going to face dangers, dont let that color your opinion of the dogs.

Aeromoto wrote: I would propose instead that responsible dog owners stop buying pitbulls and choose some other breed. Yes I know that most of them are lovely dogs and all of that, but the rescue groups and trying to change perceptions, etc, blah blah blah just seems like a collosal waste of time when you could just get a different breed of dog and maybe spend your time on more important things

Back to our car analogy. Dodge vipers are overpowered and a handful to drive and be dangerous. I dont see why people can't just stop buying them and get, what is in my opinion, a more safe and sensible car.

Because you could miss out on a great companion animal by believing that a pittie is somehow magically more evil than any other dog out there. You could also end up with a nice little Pomeranian that bites the E36 M3 out of you. Each dog is different. And its because, sadly, that all these douchebags own these dogs and are irresponsible owners so they overbreed and overpopulate them that Im happy there are rescues trying to change the opinion of people and find these dogs good homes rather than watch another 100 dogs be put down in my local shelter today. I realize the opinion of many is that animals are disposable so berkeley 'em gas them all, I'll go buy the cute little one in the pet store window, which is likely so inbred it will be dumb as a post and have serious medical conditions for it's lifetime, but hey, its disposable too so when the vet tells me my dog is sick I'll just gas it and get another one.

JoeyM wrote:

kreb wrote: -Size and power are very real factors in any "problem". Cocker Spaniels are a good example of a dog that statistics show are far more likely to bite than pits. But which one would you rather have hanging on your leg?

This

kreb wrote: I'd never have a pit for three reasons: first, I don't want a pet that can kill me - period. At least not one that lives in the house. Second, I wouldn't want to deal with people's fear as I walked the dog. And third, E36 M3 happens. With a dog like that, it happens in a big way.

I am not a fan of pits, either, but I would be even more annoyed if a neighbor had a presa canario.

I know of one Presa that frequents the dog park where I bring my dogs. He seems quite friendly and plays with my huskies. These guys are basically Spanish Mastiffs. Big guard dogs but not fighting dogs. The one that killed that woman in San Francisco was actually owned by a convict described as the most dangerous man in the California penal system. The guy was actually considering shooting the dogs up with steroids in order to make them stronger and meaner. These dogs were also locked up in a tiny apartment all day without exercise by a couple of attorneys who knew nothing about dogs.

We don't need to ban breeds. We need to ban stupid owners.

kreb wrote: I think that there's a ton of rationalizing that goes on around pit bulls. To be sure, I have run into any number of adorable, apparently mild-manered pits, but there are a few things that are hard to explain away: -Inherited behavior is a big factor in dogs. I have a herding dog, and much of his temperment is ingrained. He didn't have parents around to teach him to herd, to run at your heels, to value family hugely and always be on a lookout for them, yet he has all these traits. I've also had terriers that were phenominal ratters. Now it stands to reason that dogs that are bred to fight will have triggers that will bring about the fighting behavior as well. I once saw an Iketa (obviously not a pit, but a similarly formidable breed) tear into a labrador and send it to the hospital. It's owner was a pretty young woman from a rich family who claimed that the 3-year-old Iketa had never been in an altercation before. What set that dog off? I don't know. Another pit killed a tiny dog that was the close companion of an 85 year old woman. What made that pit go off? -Not everyone knows or understands the rules. A scenario that one hears of is of pit bulls interpreting horseplay as aggresive behavior and going after a kids playmate or such. I had a pit that was used as a demonstration dog by a well known dog trainer snap at my face. He didn't get me, but the hot breath of the dog, and the jaws snapping within an inch of my nose was a jarring reminder that being around this animal was like being around a gun or a knife. Behave properly and everything's cool. but.... -Size and power are very real factors in any "problem". Cocker Spaniels are a good example of a dog that statistics show are far more likely to bite than pits. But which one would you rather have hanging on your leg? I'd never have a pit for three reasons: first, I don't want a pet that can kill me - period. At least not one that lives in the house. Second, I wouldn't want to deal with people's fear as I walked the dog. And third, E36 M3 happens. With a dog like that, it happens in a big way.

That is a very objective post and I agree. I enjoy owning a "good" Pit because she's a lot like an Ambassador for what they should be like.

yamaha wrote:

jstein77 wrote: I have three things to say (not making any judgements here): I have a friend with two rescue Greyhounds who killed a cat in their backyard. I love all animals. When my kids and I take bike rides around the neighborhood, we stop to pet every dog. The only dog that's EVER bitten me was a pit bull. And I was being as gentle and non-threatening as I could possibly be. I consider them more aggresive than most breeds. Just my personal opinion, not really worth anything.

I'm attempting to not be offensive, but it is probably never the brightest idea to go around the neighborhood petting random dogs. The better question is why have I been bitten more times by my cousin's poodle than all the other breeds combined?

We always ask the owner's permission before petting them, and they do sometimes say no.

I've had a huge 100+lb white wolf for 12 years, but I live in an appropriate environment for him and he has a 1+ acre fenced yard all to himself. Wolves can be dangerous dogs, but at least I don't see enyone festooning wolves in spiked leather collars and bandanas, while they themselves are wearing a sleeveless Ed Hardy shirt to show off their awesome tatts, hair gel, and assorted skull jewelery because, of coarse, they're "too cool and edgy" like you see here in Florida. And the wolf breeders don't give the bloodlines names like "Danger Zone", "El Diablo", "Razors Edge", "Terminator"etc like we see around here for sale in the local trader papers

I had to chuckle at some of the Pitbull stereotypes a few years ago...

In Austin every year they have a Pit Bull Parade through downtown. Its to show that they can be great dogs. Even me (with my love of Pits) was a bit concerned about putting 400 Pitbulls on leashes in close proximity. Majorly ripe situation for fights with any dog.

The crowd was huge.... and almost every Pit fit their specific stereotype. The ghetto punks had theirs on massive chain leashes with spiked collars, most were un-neutered males, and most were some ferocious looking, broad-headed brindle color with docked ears. Almost all of the not-ghetto people had intact ears, spayed females.

But in the entire 6-hour event, the only confrontation that happened was one snarly growl between two dogs. No fights, no bites, no injuries.

This video starts out saying "a hundred pit bulls" but then goes on to say "looks more like 3 or 4 hundred." We set a Guinness record that day for the most of their kind together at one time.

Its a boring video, but the guy narrating it with his Houston twang makes it at least a bit comical. (BTW... at 2:50, that's me with the bandana, my wife, my mom and dad, and Moxie the wonder pit)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&v=FjleLPZMqWc&NR=1

Breed bans are about as useful as zero-tolerance laws: they're not. I'd prefer we ban stupidity, but then everyone would be in trouble at some point.

I have to say that I am impressed with this thread. Some heated comments on both sides, but some good points on both sides as well. It seems like both sides can see the other's point a bit more than other religious and political threads. Perhaps if we elected and worshipped pitbulls?

I get the stereotype comment now, LOL. No one has ever mistaken me for ghetto, even with the pitbull! Maybe if I wore my pants around my butt?

My Pitt is a Bob Costas, my little white fluffball is a prick and will bite your arse.

Cotton wrote: berkeley you. We have cats and dogs and this is just stupid.

Haha, I thought I would've had a response sooner. I don't like cats, but I don't want my dogs killing them either.

yamaha wrote: The better question is why have I been bitten more times by my cousin's poodle than all the other breeds combined?

I think the important point (already touched on earlier), is which is more likely to kill you when it does attack?

yamaha wrote: In that regard, most dogs are that way.....their yard is their turf. Things that invade "their turf" will prolly get berkeleyed up. It doesn't really matter on breed.

Eh. I've had an Irish setter, and 3 lab-mix mutts. Things that invade their turf get their butt and/or crotch sniffed.

I can see both sides of this issue. I do think ultimately its idiot owners at fault, but I also agree with what Kreb said regarding instinctive traits. Some dogs instinctively fetch, some herd, and some are aggressive.

ProDarwin wrote:

yamaha wrote: The better question is why have I been bitten more times by my cousin's poodle than all the other breeds combined?

I think the important point (already touched on earlier), is which is more likely to kill you when it does attack?

But again its ill conceived notions and mis-perception that lead you to believe a pit bull is any more likely or capable of killing you than a Poodle or Shepard, or Lab. There is nothing magic about the dog that makes them a more capable of killing. The measured PSI of their bite is lower than that of a GSD or rottweiler and about average for a dog. Honestly having spent time with both I think my Shar-Pei would be a much more capable killer (if she wasn't a wuss).

Honestly killing a housecat takes no great size or ferocity,

My 35lb. rescued stray killed a stray cat when the cat chose incorrectly to fight rather than flee from my yard.

The dog has some interesting habits that I attribute to being a stray, we almost had to completely domesticate it, I mean it will hide from anyone at all new, will inspect all paper wrappers and low trashcans for food. She has apparently adopted our house and yard to defend, which in general means pulling a beagle and barking at the people she can see outside and then running and hiding or sitting on the back portch scanning the fenceline for intruders.

How I know the cat chose to fight my dog: the damage was to the front of the throat of the cat, specifically crushed its throat, I saw the thing suffocate after I called the dog off when I noticed the commotion. Dogs that catch/hunt cats get them by the back of the neck and then break its neck. It also occured in the middle of my yard, plenty of escape routes for the cat.

Also some a-hole feeds stray cats near me, so every spring it seems like a new batch of kittens crops up and faces the realities of nature, I don't like my dog killing cats but I cannot do much to stop it especially with somone else increasing the population of wild cats in the area, and new ones having to learn that my yard is off-limits every year.

Funny picture once (I didn't actually take a picture though) Dog sitting on the deck looking up at a cat sitting on the fence, and the cat is looking up at the bird sitting in a tree.

also Re: Shar-Pei my parents have a half Shar-Pei mix, really nice dog, but the breed was bread to be guard dogs and they tend to take the role seriously.

My Shepherd did get a larger possum a while back. I made her drop it before she could hurt it. What bugs me I'd when I find her chewing on bones that I did not give her. She knows her family (my two cats), but is aggressive against anything she doesn't know. Cuddles with one of my cats.

Aeromoto wrote: I've had a huge 100+lb white wolf for 12 years, but I live in an appropriate environment for him and he has a 1+ acre fenced yard all to himself. Wolves can be dangerous dogs, but at least I don't see enyone festooning wolves in spiked leather collars and bandanas, while they themselves are wearing a sleeveless Ed Hardy shirt to show off their awesome tatts, hair gel, and assorted skull jewelery because, of coarse, they're "too cool and edgy" like you see here in Florida. And the wolf breeders don't give the bloodlines names like "Danger Zone", "El Diablo", "Razors Edge", "Terminator"etc like we see around here for sale in the local trader papers

I know a few people who have wolf hybrids and I have also been a volunteer for a local wolf sanctuary. A lot of wolfdogs I know are actually shy around people and if a wolf or coyote sees you in the wild before you see him, you will probably never see him. I actually rescued a 100+ pound wolf hybrid who was taken from a drug dealer who was trying to make him into some kind of guard dog by beating him, chaining him etc. Not only was this guy shy around people but he was anemic from having almost 100 well fed ticks on him. He was not going to be the kind of guard dog the drug dealer wanted. He was actually afraid of my smaller huskies. Wolf hybrids mated with malamute or husky do not make good guard dogs because malamutes and huskies do not make good guard dogs. They are not bred to protect property. They are bred to run, to pull sleds and to be curious about what's around the next bend. Being dog aggressive is not a good thing when you are hitched to a team of 8 to 10 other dogs and you have to run together in the same direction. Wolf hybrids that are wolves bred with german shepherds are more likely to guard because of shepherds have that tendency.

In reply to imirk:

Why don't you take the cats to the local shelter as opposed to watching your dog kill them? Unfortunately in my area we have irresponsible pet owners as well. They don't fix their animals and let them roam so there is a decent amount of stray dogs and cats in the area. We have taken all of our current crop of pets (dogs and cats) in as strays and they are all fixed. We've found homes for a few other ones. If I catch our dogs killing stray cats there will be hell to pay,......one of them owes his life to us anyway because we were the only one that would take the poor guy in and he was in horrible shape. My wife and I are both softies for animals though....sometimes we even feed the racoons and possums lol.

JThw8 wrote: But again its ill conceived notions and mis-perception that lead you to believe a pit bull is any more likely or capable of killing you than a Poodle or Shepard, or Lab. There is nothing magic about the dog that makes them a more capable of killing. The measured PSI of their bite is lower than that of a GSD or rottweiler and about average for a dog. Honestly having spent time with both I think my Shar-Pei would be a much more capable killer (if she wasn't a wuss).

I get that. I don't think a pit bull is any more capable. Is it more likely to kill once the aggression has begun though?

I'm not a dog expert. I love dogs, I've had a few, and been around all sorts of them. In my almost-30 years with them I think I've been growled at once and snapped at once. Never actually bitten though. Cats on the other hand... I've had a few of them bite or attack me. Luckily, they are easy to shake off due to their size.

In regards to being a capable killer... well, that's just pretty much a size thing. Even a 30lb dog could kill a toddler in the blink of an eye. Anything over 75lbs is pretty capable of berkeleying up an adult human.

Aeromoto wrote:

93EXCivic wrote:

Aeromoto wrote: As long as we're quoting articles and studies--- "Several studies have determined that pit bull owners and owners of other "vicious" or "high risk" breeds (most commonly identified as Akita, Chow Chow, Doberman Pinscher, Pit Bull, Rottweiler, and Wolf-mix) are more likely to have criminal convictions and are more likely to display antisocial behaviors. A 2006 study comparing owner's of "vicious" dogs to owners of "low risk" dogs determined that the former group had nearly 10 times as many criminal convictions.[50] A 2009[51] and a followup 2012[52] study generally supported these conclusions."

This points out the problem is the owner not the dog. I think that is the point you are making. I wish these idiots would switch to something like a Pomeranian or preferable no dog.

Of course I don't having anything against pitbulls, nor do I have anything against the giant snakes that are berkeleyking up the Everglades, they're doing what giant snakes are supposed to do. I blame the owners, As far as the douchebags switching to other breeds, I doubt that's gonna happen. I would propose instead that responsible dog owners stop buying pitbulls and choose some other breed. Yes I know that most of them are lovely dogs and all of that, but the rescue groups and trying to change perceptions, etc, blah blah blah just seems like a collosal waste of time when you could just get a different breed of dog and maybe spend your time on more important things

The problem with this is that the pitbulls are already out there. I don't know if you have been to a shelter lately but most shelters are filled with pit bulls and cats and the least likely animals in the shelters to be adopted are pit bulls and cats. The breeders are breeding pit bulls like crazy because there are people out there that pay good money for pit bull pups. Eventually a lot of them end up in the shelter because of irresponsible owners.

The pit bulls are already here. You either euthanize them or rescue them.

ProDarwin wrote:

JThw8 wrote: But again its ill conceived notions and mis-perception that lead you to believe a pit bull is any more likely or capable of killing you than a Poodle or Shepard, or Lab. There is nothing magic about the dog that makes them a more capable of killing. The measured PSI of their bite is lower than that of a GSD or rottweiler and about average for a dog. Honestly having spent time with both I think my Shar-Pei would be a much more capable killer (if she wasn't a wuss).

I get that. I don't think a pit bull is any more capable. Is it more likely to kill once the aggression has begun though? I'm not a dog expert. I love dogs, I've had a few, and been around all sorts of them. In my almost-30 years with them I think I've been growled at once and snapped at once. Never actually bitten though. Cats on the other hand... I've had a few of them bite or attack me. Luckily, they are easy to shake off due to their size. In regards to being a capable killer... well, that's just pretty much a size thing. Even a 30lb dog could kill a toddler in the blink of an eye. Anything over 75lbs is pretty capable of berkeleying up an adult human.

In answer to your question, no I don't believe it is any more likely to kill once aggression has started than any other dog either. Once aggression has started it all comes down to being able to control the animal because dogs themselves are not prone to halting aggression without some type of intervention. They are no harder to subdue than any other dog of the same size. Yes they are a strong dog but in my personal experience with them 200 lbs of me easily overcomes 60lbs of them every time :)

My pit bull/black lab mix is about this biggest baby I've ever met. She loves cats, although most cats don't care much for her. I guess she's a little intimidating. She also helps me build robots. OK, maybe she's not much help, but I can't go to the garage without her begging to come with me. She will bark if someone is at the door, but I have honestly never heard her growl or even show her teeth. The total lack of aggression is actually kind of weird. She once had a dog attack her, and she smiled with her tongue hanging out and her tail wagging while the other dog was latched onto her neck. I really think she thought it was just playing around.

In reply to Cotton:

We did that with the one we caught, well tried to, the shelters wer full or closed, but we had a friend who does a sort of personal pet shelter/rescue, ended up becoming somones pet. Usually cats just scram when the door opens and when I noticed the commotion I got outside and called the dog off, (and it obeyed) but it was too late for the cat, gasped about 3-4 times and expired, could/would have shown it some mercy but didn't have an appropriate tool.

It honestly hasn't been a problem since, just stick my head out the door when I let the dog out. Skunks, possums, and raccoons are all classified varmit for me, not a problem where I live now but they were capture and kill on sight when my family had chickens.

In reply to N Sperlo:

My oldest one is very social but won't cuddle up with anything.....she loves attention, but not all the time(she was 1-2 when she arrived as a stray, so perhaps something happened before??). The 3yo however would prolly try to lay on top of you if you'd let him.

Both are extremely protective, but the oldest one is the one that bonded with me. I can get up and leave the room and have her happily following me anywhere.

Also, I'd be more worried of a roving pack of dogs than any single dog.