So what's the new special category for next year?

Ashyukun (Robert) said:

In reply to SVreX :

Admittedly this wasn't a 'normal' Challenge- having the Drags would have changed the balance of things a modest bit...

That’s true. 

But autocross cars CAN win the overall. The Mumpkin was close (and could have done it)

I hope the special category/class ends up being something that brings people into the event. The lux-o-barge class seemed to do that...

In reply to stafford1500 :

Whoa! I missed the mentor idea...how would it work?

Let me see what I can find for CAM-T cars on Atlanta Craigslist. Here's a couple potential starting points - some of which might have a decent finish, others of which might provide decent comedy:

Half finished '83 Camaro / 5.3 LS swap project, $850

Badly running but complete '81 Monte Carlo, $1500

'83 Mustang with some suspension mods and no motor, $1100

Oldsmobile Deltas - your choice of an Eighty-Eight or Ninety-Eight

Ashyukun (Robert) said:

In reply to SVreX :

Admittedly this wasn't a 'normal' Challenge- having the Drags would have changed the balance of things a modest bit...

While I completely agree because that would have changed the attendance, it's worth noting that the fastest autocross car also ran the second fastest 400' time with a 5.9xx. I'm pretty sure that I saw a 5.8xx out of the V8 Miata. I think Wreck Racing had a 6.0xx as their best. I wish we had those full results for a data point but I understand why we don't.

SVreX said:

Ashyukun (Robert) said:

In reply to SVreX :

Admittedly this wasn't a 'normal' Challenge- having the Drags would have changed the balance of things a modest bit...

That’s true. 

But autocross cars CAN win the overall. The Mumpkin was close (and could have done it)

That's true...But a 'stock class' car can't.  LOL

In reply to Driven5 :

Correct. 

And a pop warner team can’t win the Super Bowl. 

How about an AWD/4WD class? As long as all 4 wheels are powered, have at it. Factory or homebrewed. There's a lot of ways to skin that cat.

In reply to SVreX :

Exactly.

My suggestions: (with bias of course)

'Rad' class - follow the trend of "radwood" and similar shows by making it a 1980-1999 class but require period dress at the concours

AWD and t-top would also be cool.  CAM would of course make good editorial, but doesn't feel the same as the past classes to me.

Also, maybe it might be time to let the 'special' class have a year off since there seems to be a lack of motivation from the original perpetrators.

In reply to CrustyRedXpress :

It was brought up that some teams that have attended the challenge sponsor or mentor a high school or local college team.  Saul Goode Racing has begun trying to get in touch with our local technical college to see if they would like to compete. 

In reply to SaulGoode :

I have started getting in touch with the local high school too. 

How about we kill two birds with one stone? 

The magazine mentioned the desire for more classes in which competitors could compete and many people have mentioned a more "realistic" class for people trying to enter normal cars.  There is also a push in this thread for a street tire / treadwear / price point / not Hoosiers class. 

David and Tommy stated in the townhall that as cool as minivans or pickups or wagons are they are at the end of the day a sports car magazine, and they like content that appeals to their audience.

So with out further ado here are the two special classes I propose for 2019.

Special class 1:

We can call it the gastropods or the stockish craigslist class or the claimer class, whatever... it doesn't matter. 

The basic idea is a car that was bought off craigslist, Ebay, or a buy here pay here lot.  The car has to be driven to the event as raced, no trailers.  Kind of what mazda deuce suggested...  I think this class would be a great place to try out a spec non race tire, however we decide to limit it.  It could be price or high treadwear.

This would be a great way for new people to get in the game or compete with a minimal effort. 

A good example would be the matrix brought by the 17 year old from this years challenge.

Special Class 2.

CAM.  This class would solve a couple problems.  

We can have it mirror the SCCA CAM rules so it is limited to a 200 treadwear tires.  Any CAM eligible car can compete under one class. This class is diverse, it allows for malisse era cars, Mustangs, Camaros, Muscle Cars, pickups etc... 

The magazine can bring a control car which is nationally competitive for comparison.

The car can be raced in a real class afterwards so it is not a one trick pony.

CAM appeals to muscle car people, classic car people and autocrossers alike.

So what does everyone think of having two separate special classes next year.

In reply to pimpm3 :

I like it, but I would appreciate dropping the “no trailer” requirement. 

Im likely to be bringing a bunch of high schoolers, and though this class would be perfect for them, the potential to get stranded without the ability to go home on a trailer would be a deal breaker for me (and their parents)

Add an extra Concours point for cars driven to the event. 

I'm 100% on board with trying to herd the cats on the low spec tire there to voluntarily compete with not crazy builds let's all meet each other and have a great time class. I'm waiting to hear back from Tom on a proposal that I sent him an email about it, but it covers about 95% of what pimpm3 suggested. I'm with SVreX on the trailer thing if for no other reason than sometimes you don't want to spend the money to register and insure a car and that's cool. Drag that project out from behind the garage, wash it, put some tires from this decade on it and come have a good time. Cruise CL, spend a few bills, put some tires from this decade on, come have a good time. Get your 16 year old a car for high school, do the maintenance, put some tires from this decade on it, come have a good time. Talk your buddy with the used car lot into loaning you a beater for the weekend, put on some tires from this decade, come have a good time. 

While you're there, look at the Wreck Racing crew, the Nelsons, any of the crazy stuff, go home and dust off the welder. Or just bring a friend back next year. We'll find a place for you. Let's do this. 

SVreX said:

In reply to pimpm3 :

I like it, but I would appreciate dropping the “no trailer” requirement. 

Im likely to be bringing a bunch of high schoolers, and though this class would be perfect for them, the potential to get stranded without the ability to go home on a trailer would be a deal breaker for me (and their parents)

Add an extra Concours point for cars driven to the event. 

I like it,  I am on board with adding extra points for driving it to the event.  Also this is totally organic, if Seth wants to head this up or tweak the rules it's all good with me.

One other idea (I’m lifting from the other thread)

If we want to attract more new competitors, how about we get the price of a $2000 car back down to where it should be?  $2000. 

By the time we include recoup items, free tires, and free brake parts, our “$2000” racers are pushing $4K (plus travel, lodging, entry fees, etc). 

When I started (in 2004), tires (and all other costs) were included.

A special class with NO exemptions. Build a $2K car for $2K. Including tires. 

Maybe keep recoup. Maybe. 

In reply to mazdeuce - Seth :

Feel free to steal anything you want from my last post and include it. 

I feel strongly that we should try to make an effort to get the price back down. 

SVreX said:

When I started (in 2004), tires (and all other costs) were included.

BUT, FMV wasn’t in the rules yet either. That turbo and nitrous that someone had just laying around could be accounted as whatever they claimed they paid for it, or even free. Same goes for race tires.

I really don’t think the extra $18 over what you’re proposing that we had this year is ruining the event. Why change it? What are you trying to fix?

BTW it was good chatting with you on Saturday. 

I’ll sell my 95 impala ss as a rust free roller to someone looking to build a CAM eligible challenger.  Insert LS swap of choice and sticky tires and go.

In reply to n8 :

No, FMV started in 2003. It has been there as long as I have. 

The $18 is already gone. GRM changed it this weekend. The event is now the $2000 Challenge- no changes year to year. 

I am suggesting INCLUDING tires, brakes, etc. in the budget. Everything.

A $2000 car shouldn’t cost $4000. 

Daily driver class.

Must have full interior.

No engine swaps, no major cutting.

Must have heat, wipers, horn, etc. and pass some sort of safety inspection.

Bonus points given for DD-ish amenities.  (A/C, stereo, etc.)

200tw tire limit.  Some sort of low-ish dB limit.

Must be driven to the challenge.

*Proof that you have put 5k miles on the car in the past year (exceptions given for those who don't need to communte)*

In reply to ProDarwin :

My $2015 Aristocrats 1990 Infiniti Q45 passes all of the criteria you set forth and took 10th Overall. 

In reply to SVreX :

I could have sworn the FMV was added much later than that. 

I don’t recall a firm decision on the budget cap change but only that the magazine would like to simplify it. Someone suggested that you keep the budget as-is based on year but market and brand it as the $2000 Challenge to simplify the elevator pitch. 

rob_lewis said:

Different direction, but I think it'd help pull in more folks to the Challenge.  And could be a separate class other than the special category.

What about a "run what you brung" class that's limited to "as bought" condition.  The wrenching, swapping, fabbing, frankenmonsters are awesome and spirit of the Challenge, but I'd guess a lot of us don't have the time or skills to do that level of wrenching, but would still love to come to the Challenge and compete form something.

The idea would be a class limited to cars that don't have any (much?) work done to them, more about your ability to negotiate and shop for the best deals.  I'm thinking auction cop cars, stock performance cars, even cars bought already modified.  For me, it'd be chance to scour the auction sites and see if I can pick up a police Charger or something.  Or, find that one owner V6 Camry Coupe that the addition of sticky tires would make it a decent competitor.  Could you find that K20 swapped Civic that the guy just forgot to hook up the ground cables?  Or the Vette that "needs a rebuild" when in reality it was a clogged PVC valve?  It might end up being just a Miata class, but I'd like to think you'll see a bunch of really unique cars.  How cool would it be if someone shows up in that rich divorce punishment sell where the wife sells off the husbands (or vice versa) Porsche collection for $2k each?  :D

Plus, if gives those folks without wrenching skills or time to actually compete (alas in a smaller class) and feel like they've accomplished something and not feeling lazy by just buying and showing up. 

Basic rules would be:

1. Proof of what you bought it for and that anyone could have
2. You can make mods (still under budget), but are limited to typical things an average Joe can do. Tires, oil changes, battery, plugs, filters, etc.  Perhaps limited to stuff you can buy in a WalMart store.  That would keep it limited. I could see someone hacking together a CAI with  parts from the plumbing department and a motorcycle air filter. 
3. The standard safety budget exempt rules still apply.  If you buy a car for $2019 that just needs an oil change, bearing repacked, needs brakes and tires, then you've probably done some good shopping!
4. Lightness is allowed on the interior but not exterior.  You can pull the carpet, sound deadening, seats, sunroof?, spare tire, jack.  You cannot take off the doors, trunk lid, hood, fenders, etc.  I'm not sure about glass because I could see getting a cheap vandalized car that all the windows are busted out of, but removing good glass is probably beyond the "average" person.  Not sure.
5. Paint jobs are limited to rattle cans and masking tape. 

To keep it fair, we'd need to figure out "advertised price" vs. "negotiated".  Nobody will believe you talked the seller of that salvage title Camaro from their $10,000 asking price to $2019.  But a $4000 car that's been on Craig's for 6 months that you hit the seller up when their house payment is due and you offered $2000?  I could see that.  Maybe video proof?  Not sure how we could watch it. 

(I keep editing as I think of stuff)

-Rob

That's basically what we brought with Car #16 - the red/gray miata./ CAI was a Dodge radiator hose routed through a newly cut hole in the bulkhead (cowl air induction). Hole was made with a Dremel and a LOT of patience. 

In reply to SVreX :

Doesn't that already exist as the $1000 class?