Teenage driver, how new to be "safe"?

This is purely an opinion discussion. I expect opinions to vary wildly across the board. Not looking to be convinced nor expecting anyone's opinions to be changed. Just a boring Thursday discussion. (Hopefully, keeping the thread from being locked).

As my son gets closer to the magic age of 16 the question of a good first car have come up. Both with him and with SWMBO, grandparents, friends, co-workers, etc. Specifically, the discussion often revolves around "safety" and what's a "safe" first car. I believe in safety, btw, but I put it in quotes because of the fluidity of it's definition in this matter.

We have a newish car with a billion airbags, but small, that he could drive. He likes it. I fear what my insurance will be on a car with Turbo in the name. (It's a Fiat 500t). SWMBO likes that idea because it's "safe".

I don't like it because he can't autocross it, which is something he really wants to do. Well, that and the insurance thing, again. Plus, I don't like hand me down cars, and would prefer for him to have something he really wants that he'll take ownership of and take care of. The two on his short list are a Cooper or a Miata. SWMBO, him and I all agree it MUST be a stick.

SWMBO and others don't like the Miata because "it's too small" and doesn't have enough safety features. The Cooper is only slightly better. Friends and co-workers think I'm close to child neglect if I don't buy him something with 8 airbags, automatic braking, lane departure warning and an automatic. Literally, they shake their head as if I'm abusing my kid by NOT thinking of something like that.

Personally, I feel that driving is a privilege and requires 110% attention and respect. As a result, I'd be OK if he wanted a Locost or Sprite to have as a first car. In some ways, better, because he won't be lulled into driving poorly because "the car will save me".

So, what do y'all think? Does he need a full size modern SUV with all the safety features currently available because he's a new* driver? Could I let him drive a 60's sports car? If neither, what's the cutoff age to be "safe"?

-Rob

*Quick note for those who don't know, my son's been racing karts nationally since he was 6. He has a TON of driving experience and is very heads up and aware of his surroundings. So, he's not your normal new driver. He want's something small and nimble that he can autocross and have fun with. Not something with gobs of power that he'll never have a chance to really use. (I've taught him the old "It's more fun to drive a slow car fast than a fast car slow")

Being that with young kids, occasionally "E36 M3 happens", I'd tend to avoid anything with no airbags at all. But beyond that, something that he'll be able to learn to drive well is far more important than tons of safety features.

Volvo 240/740? Old, cheap, still pretty safe, motorsports potential. Or a Saab if he doesn't care about rear wheel drive.

With your son's experience, the safest car is one that's nimble. The best way to survive an accident is to not be in it. So a big lumbering tank of an SUV is less likely to do what he needs it to do when he needs to do it than a smaller, lighter car. If he didn't treat driving like a skill that needs to be done well, I'd have a different answer. But basically, give him the tool he needs so use that skill.

Airbags and ABS and appropriate summer and winter tires and you're in good shape. The Cooper and the Miata both fit that bill pretty well. They've both proven themselves to be safe in the real world when the metal hits the, uhh, metal.

One thing to keep in mind: distraction isn't just cellphones. At 16, distraction is also passengers. And you can only have one passenger in a two-seater.

My oldest son is driving whatever is here to borrow or whatever he can afford to buy for himself. An 88 535is, an old 911 and an M3 were all safe enough for him to ride in the back seat of as a baby... and better than anything I had around when I learned to drive. He is lucky to be learning on my '05 325 wagon right now... which I feel is a very safe car in the event of having to rely on it for that.

Get him a 60's VW bug (40hp). Have him AutoX it to experience some scary spins. Explain how front end gets light above 70 mph (in case he ever drive downhill).

Safest driver ever.

Bonus: get a jack, a 17mm and 10mm wrench and a flat head screwdriver: Remove engine explain it and put it back in within a lunch hour.

(sort of kidding)

He does not need an SUV, nor 800 airbags. In fact, I think these make worse drivers.

I would not be comfortable with a '60's sports car. Heck, I'm not really comfortable driving them myself.

I'd want:

• Something with a stick.

• Something slightly older to keep insurance rates down.

• Personally, I'd choose someone hint that was inexpensive enough that I could afford to loose it, and not carry full coverage.

• Something he can wreck. Let me reword that- sounds like he is a good driver. OK, something his friends in SUVs can back into without making you cry.

I think your wife is really wrong about the safety of a Miata- they meet modern safety standards. Her problem is a perceived one, not a real one.

I'd check with my insurance company before committing.

In my case, I have 2 teenage boys driving. They do not each have their own cars- I told them they could share one. It's an older minivan- they call it the Pedivan. It embarrasses them- I think that is good. We carry only basic coverage. I own the car and pay for repairs and insurance, they pay for gas. BUT, they have to keep their grades up, and their driving record clean. If that changes, they will have to get their own car, and their own insurance. I'd swap it for a stick shift car in a heartbeat. They autocross with me in a manual car.

Your son sounds like he would drive circles around most drivers I think that you, mom need to agree but everyone else needs to stay out of it. As we on here know SUVs are not really safer, they are harder to see out of, will go over easier than a car and have a lot of room in the back.

Small, nimble and newish, in my opinion, is better and safer than big and willowy no matter what kind of driver you are.

Keith Tanner wrote: With your son's experience, the safest car is one that's nimble. The best way to survive an accident is to not be in it. So a big lumbering tank of an SUV is less likely to do what he needs it to do when he needs to do it than a smaller, lighter car.

This. I've had a few near-misses due to other people's stupidity while driving the Jeep. In 2 cases, if I'd been in a stock version of my Jeep with all-seasons and mushy suspension (instead of one with stiffer suspension and on sticky-ish summers), I would have almost definitely hit the person due to being unable to dump speed fast enough or maneuver around them.

In one of those cases, an idiot pulled out less than 100 feet in front of me from the left (while I was doing 50-ish mph). Fortunately, there was a wide section of shoulder right across from the road he was pulling out of, so I could dump a little speed and go around him. I managed to miss taking a CR-V to the driver's door by about a foot, from what I could tell. No way to dump enough speed in the available distance to avoid a collision if I'd continued straight, so if I'd had less maneuvering ability and couldn't duck into the wide section of shoulder far enough as soon as I got to it, I would have either rear ended him or gotten t-boned.

Oh... my kids turn off their cell phones when driving. They put them in the trunk.

It means I can't always reach them when I want to. I'm good with that.

Another thing, slightly off topic, is that compared to the traffic on a race track normal street drivers do mind bendingly stupid crap almost constantly. That may be something worth emphasizing when you're driving with him.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯ wrote: Another thing, slightly off topic, is that compared to the traffic on a race track normal street drivers do mind bendingly stupid crap almost constantly. That may be something worth emphasizing when you're driving with him.

Yes. A solid 50% of all drivers out there need to be sent for intensive driver re-training. And only the best-performing 70% of those should be allowed to ever have a license again.

This far and no one said anything about a car yet. Larger than "too small" and fun to autocross. Bonus points 4 door for insurance and no turbo.

Seriously though I fall into the camp where teenagers will take better care of something that they like/have an investment in. I'm a big fan of Street Survival but your son sounds like he has more experience than most so that option probably wouldn't teach him much.

SUVs give the illusion of safety that I've never personally bought into, actually they make me more nervous because they don't ever give me the impression that I can avoid the accident safely with them (as Keith mentioned).

I have been thinking about this lately.

It really depends on how convinced you are that he will be an attentive driver. IF (and with teenagers it's a huge if) than I agree completely with Keith that something nimble is the way to go.

However, is he is going to be a typical teenager I would want more beef and more safety features. NOT in an suv. I've known 3 kids killed in single car accidents because they rolled (two were trying to dodge deer at highway speeds). A large boring sedan would be my pick.

And I may be jaded against airbags because my only permanent injury from a wreck last fall was because the airbag deployed. I know, personal bias, sample size of 1, etc.

Anything low, unibody, post 2000 release year is good.

Also, the best thing about a Miata is that it can only fit one other fool. Boys in herds are dangerous.

5-8 year old Corolla FTW.

Miata will allow him to use his skills for fun and more importantly, safety.

Much more room to dodge an accident in a Miata than in my Yukon. Shorter braking distances and the rest.

rob_lewis wrote: T Friends and co-workers think I'm close to child neglect if I don't buy him something with 8 airbags, automatic braking, lane departure warning and an automatic. Literally, they shake their head as if I'm abusing my kid by NOT thinking of something like that.

ask those people what there first car was and how many air bags it had. then ask them how they managed to survive those death traps.

i would say a 'happy medium' would be something no older then ~15 years old, so like mentioned before something post 2000. still give a broad range of options and still relatively safe

I’m going to be a dissenting voice to the whole ‘the safest car is a small nimble car’ train of thought that is so popular amongst enthusiasts. A nimble car is only good for avoiding accidents when the driver is aware of the impending situation and able to avoid it. I would say that is the minority of accident scenarios. First, it’s not going to save you from being rear ended or sideswiped. Second, no matter how we want to dress it up and think (delude?) ourselves that we are all superior drivers and all our offspring have inherited all our good traits so neither we nor them are prone to mistakes, lapses of concentration we are all wrong. If the likes of Prost, Senna, Loeb, McRea etc. could all make mistakes so can we or our kids. Also teenagers don’t always make good decisions. It’s a proven fact that our Pre Frontal Cortex isn’t mature until our early mid 20’s and men mature more slowly than women. That’s a scientific fact. Young people are not as capable as adults of making judgment decisions about closing speeds, risks, consequences etc. I’ve DD an NA Miata, a 323 GTX, Various Hillman Imps, a Davrian kit car and a Boxster. All small cars. They are fun, but they are less visible on today’s roads when surrounded by full size SUV’s, trucks etc. The best driver in the world can’t change the attention, peripheral vision, judgment, ability, skill or physics of another driver or their car. Teen drivers are more than twice as likely to have fatal accidents than people over 25, excluding the elderly, but that’s a different subject.

Let them have access to a (your?) fun toy car for occasional use when they are hyper vigilant, but complacency, physics, science, statistics and reality all say to me something like a Miata is a bad bad idea for a teen, especially a 16 year old one. The maturity difference between 16 and even 19 is outstanding.

My first car was a Hillman Imp, my wife’s was a Fiero. I was lucky that a telegraph pole prevented my own cockiness, lack of ability, lack of special awareness and inexperience of reading road surfaces prevented me from flipping it and becoming a statistic. For our eldest she started in an E36 (manual trans) and our youngest will start in either my Volvo C30 or something like an Escape. I fully support kids having ABS, stability control, 1.8billion air bags and Bluetooth.

The E36 had ABS, airbags etc. and is/was light years better than a Miata in just about any accident scenario I can think of. What about one of those?

This is always an interesting question. When I began driving, my first car was a 25 year old sedan (1974 in 1999). Would you be comfortable with him driving a 1992 car?

Accident avoidance only gets you so far. I've been in one accident that was almost unavoidable (in stop and go traffic, got rear ended. We've had some others in the family that may have been avoidable, but weren't and certainly weren't limited by the cars performance. IF safety is the highest concern, I'd be interested to know how well a Miata does when an XTerra plows into the back of it at 40mph.

Cars from the 90s will likely lend themselves to autox a lot better than many cars from the 2000s, but safety wise you can get a pretty big jump there for very little $.

Semi on topic, I was surprised to learn that the B15 Sentra has safety ratings roughly equal to a Saturn S series (introduced 10 years earlier). I looked this up when I saw the video of the 1992 Sentra getting annihilated by a Versa. I have a SpecV Rallx car, but DD a 98 Saturn. So, look into the details of the specific car.

New cars with a bunch of airbags may lead to higher insurance costs, you need to talk with your insurance agent about all options you are seriously considering. The Cooper may be a lot more than a miata of similar vintage.

I deal with a lot of the new technologies in a professional role. They are there to add safety, but at the same time, they are only meant to do something if the driver FAILS TO ACT. (or in the case of Active Cruise, its a convenience, and your kids dont need that)

Reality is that ABS, Airbags, etc are rather good things to have and each decade has seen large improvements in structure of the occupant compartment.

To illustrate my point https://www.youtube.com/embed/85OysZ_4lp0

The Tsaru is pretty much the early 90's sentra, so you can see a direct comparison regarding the generation of design.

For more information on cars you are looking at http://www.iihs.org/iihs/ratings is a good resource.

An NC miata should be a lot safer than an NA miata... But I will say that I drive an NA miata in DC, so you just have to think about how much risk you want to accept.

And before anyone goes on about 50's and 60's car being safer for being larger, the occupant compartment isnt all that strong on them. https://www.youtube.com/embed/joMK1WZjP7g

The last vehicle my 17yo drove was the Samurai.

Family services should be here any minute now.

I even let my eldest son use it to haul the grand-kids around. The kids love it.

Life is way too short to worry about dying.

10 years ago I was 15. Dad and I started fixing up the El Camino in my avatar picture. Here's my experience.

Pros:

• Working on it made me respect the car and less likely to do stupid things.
• Only 1 other peer can ride with you, or 2 but you look embarrassing with 3 dudes sharing a bench seat.
• Scary as hell to drive as a new driver = more aware of your abilities and anticipation/fear of other drivers.
• You develop good skills just by driving something that old.
• Always needed something fixed, so I never drove too far from home.
• No cup holders or center console or other nice places to put cell phones. They slide right off the vinyl seat onto the floor or you keep it in your pocket.
• The car is noticeable and unique, so you know you can never get away with anything stupid like hooning or burnouts.
• Fathers of dates instantly trust you after telling them you built your own car.
• Dates love the bench seat

Cons:

• V8 sounded too good, always revving in the high school parking lot.
• V8 sounded too good, always trying to bury the speedo at night on my favorite long stretch.
• No safety things (see the "new vs old Impala crash test" on youtube...YIKES).
• Light rear end made it too easy to hoon and do burnouts.
• Still not cool enough to make a nerd like me popular. Maybe that's a good thing.

Here's what I recommend based on experience and observation.

-It shouldn't cost more than $3500 at the high end, and it would ideally be around $1500.

-Mediocre gas consumption is a plus. Fuel mileage is one of the easiest ways of learning how far a dollar actually goes.

-Low center of gravity is good.

-Autocross really helps when it comes to learning how your car behaves, as well as how big the car actually is.

Based on his experience, I would say that he should probably get a V6 Fiero. Nimble enough to be fun, cool looking, reasonably modern, and doesn't inspire as many shenanigans as a Miata. Dirt cheap to buy, most common wear parts are stocked at any FLAPS, not terrible to insure, and surprisingly safe (the second safest car without air bags the NHTSA has ever tested).