mblommel said:
frenchyd said:
This is about racing.
The street could be massively more costly than the race track.
Right... because it's always cheaper to race a car than drive it on the street. 
This is a car he bought new. The restoration quote varied from 60-80,000 in an apparently rust free car not really needing any mechanical work.
Honestly if it were mine, I'd carefully detail it and just drive it. Nothing horrible looking.
He's carefully doing research ( including reading all these postings) and going to decide what to do. I think he can afford a fair amount but he's near my age and doesn't have limitless funds.
Even though it's easy to bait you into the Chevy V8 discussion I wish people wouldn't do it. Perry's 928 does not deserve a Chevy V8, the engine in it is a good one. He should race it and it would be awesome. If not, he should sell it to me for cheap I will fill it with lumber from your house on the way back.
In reply to dculberson :
I agree just because it's easy and fits doesn't mean people should do it. Besides nobody thinks the engine needs work.
So an engine with 4 more cylinders, a few more cubic inches, and 3 whole points higher compression makes more power? Hmmm... I'll have to remember that.
Rons said:
A real quick Google search found the Porsche 928 Racing page link follows. There's also YouTube videos
https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100026316952512&paipv=0&eav=AfafIJmsLRxGFWS4OIQj8hyNiM6pRjdqku6fMWXYH3YP8MNnPJdwJo7BHyyaTfZl3ik&dl_redirect=1
That is absolutely the best source. Thanks for that. He's trying to contact them .
Apexcarver said:
I knew a guy who autocrossed a 79 928. It wasn't exceptionally fast and I recall it took some effort to keep it running happy.
I'm not sure what it would take to build relevant power for road racing, much less if it would be reliable.
I get that you might love odd ducks frenchy, but the p-car parts tax is real. I have a feeling you could build a decent Camaro quite easily for what you would have in figuring out the 928, and you would have a much much easier time finding parts deals and not having to reinvent the wheel means purchasing once, instead of repeatedly. Simpler to work on is better for a novice wrencher too, he could probably literally go to a local library and find books on building a race engine for a Camaro boiled down for a novice.
Simply put, if everyone is doing it, there might be a reason.
Some people have trouble with every car. Carl raced his Ferrari 330 and had to have a better clutch put in. As a result he could no longer drive it on the street. He bought the DeMar and in 3 years of vintage racing he never completed a lap When I was finished it won all but one race with me driving. He never won another race. ( it was too fast for him).he then bought a Lotus 11 ••••
nlevine said:
Petrolicious had an article about a 928 racecar project a bunch of years ago - https://petrolicious.com/articles/this-modern-porsche-928-race-car-is-pure-gt-nostalgia
Seems that one raced in 1984 at the 24 Hours of Daytona, so there's some historical precedence for them being raced professionally. (picture from https://www.racingsportscars.com/photo/Daytona-1984-02-05.html)
Also found some other historical race pictures - mostly looks like privateers- https://928srus.com/pages/historic-racing-928-pictures-from-1980-1990.
It was built to be a grand tourer and autobahn cruiser, not a race car, so I'm sure it's carrying a bunch of weight around that doesn't need to be there to race, but that also means there may not be be easily attainable race parts for the car unless you plan to fab your own. Not sure how authentic-to-period the SVRA is concerning eligibility. Do you have to build to a documented configuration that was raced back in the day?
Good question. Vintage racing has a different interpretation in every club.
If you want an invite to the prestigious events it should be a numbers matching as originally raced car.
Some clubs pretty much allow anything and are glad for the entry. The thing is they get smaller and smaller entry fields.
SVRA is kinda the big player. When I proposed my XJS to them and asked about the rules they pretty much poopooed it. Threatening me with group 12 which goes all the way to 2018. A 48 year old car. Against 5 year old cars. When I asked about a Group 44 tribute car with fender flairs and 10 inch wide wheels . Suddenly I was back in group 6. ?!?!
In reply to frenchyd :
To some extent, I think that says if you have a specific car (and maybe a specific build) in mind, you might have to look around a bit to find a type of racing that's suitable without having to spend a ton of money to be competitive.
Nothing to add other than I was at a Porsche club day at Watkins Glenn 6 or so years ago and there was a guy running a 928 race car, that thing sounded soooo good.
mblommel said:
frenchyd said:
This is about racing.
The street could be massively more costly than the race track.
Right... because it's always cheaper to race a car than drive it on the street.
I'm sorry but I suspect you are wrong.
Dealerships command a massive premium to deal with people who often know next to nothing about cars.
Except what they read and conversations with friends.
When I ran an import repair shop we got a Mercedes Benz 450 in the dealer had told him it would need a engine rebuild. The dealership Quoted a really big number and the owner brought it to us. I quoted him less than 1/2 of what the dealer did trying to discourage him thinking he'd never go for it. He did, thanking me.
I did rebuild it for him though it didn't need it. As I was finishing up on it I found the vacuum hose to the distributor was cracked. New hose installed it ran fine.
He was thrilled. I felt guilty. If I hadn't of wanted to get it over with I would have tested things like that first.
Jaguar dealerships will charge you $1300 for a "Lucas" ignition module. Flip it over and pop the module out from the plastic "Lucas" case.
Drop it on the counter of any parts house$25-35 for a GM ignition module.
Take that same car into a dealership with transmission hesitation shifting? They will probably quote you $5500 for an overhaul.
Any GM mechanic knows the nylon hose connection is installed upside down. 15 minutes plus 10 minutes to do the write up.
High dollar cars depreciate like a rock. Because if they were easy and cheap to fix people wouldn't trade it in for a new one. Those high dollar cars retain the same basic body style for a long time.
Unlike Chevy's and Fords they don't get an endless parade of customers so they have to nail the few they do get.
If you're a real gear head. Not just read a magazine and chat with friends and you have a decent set of tools. The high dollar low volume cars can really be a profit center.
Mechanically they are often really well made. However the cosmetics aren't durable. They quickly start looking scruffy. Depreciation.
I'm stalling on doing something productive so I'll share some thoughts here instead. NOTE: I have driven a 928 about 50 feet total, pulling it into and back out of a tire shop I worked at, so I'm clearly an expert in these. I also have never raced anything properly, so expert there as well. Pretty much a clear authority on everything being discussed here.
I think if a guy could gut the interior on these, really study the parts supply for the items that remain, and keep spares around he should be able to race one okay. I think it would be easier to keep these on a track vs. on a street where things like broken A/C, power radio antennas, etc etc would be noticed. Did you know there was an optional rear air-consistent that has some shared and some on-purpose components? It's like they wanted to make A Complicated German Car in the time before the CAN bus existed so they had to find other ways to do it. They're also not very good aerodynamically and they're heavy so there is a big "why are you doing this again?" question to it.
I still think these are cool, and if I had a couple yards of extra cash laying around for a car that was meant for covering serious distance, one of these might make the cut. Components being no longer available would be my biggest fear like has been mentioned already. But if the car is a manual, and simplifying the daylights out of the interior is okay, then why not? I mean, we're not talking about this because it's the most rational way to get a car onto a track.
p.s. why are you always talking about Jags? Nobody uses the XJ anything as a benchmark for anything.
I have no answers for you but I do love 928s. Do you know what year the 928 is? The power varied from about 220hp when introduced up to 345hp in the last year of production so "how fast is it" isn't a simple answer.
You might find info in the forums over at Rennlist. Here's a link to the 928 forum there. The 928 forum is geared towards road cars, naturally, but you can probably find help. There is a performance/competition forum there but it is dominated by 911, 944, Cayman/Boxster stuff. There are also full factory service manuals and other info available there.
Here's a thread on Corner-carvers where a guy documents upgrading a 928 for track duty as well as restoring a few. Lots of good info, lots of cool pictures.
I love 928s. Wish I had bought one 10+ years ago when they bottomed out on the depreciation curve. But racing one would I think require either considerable mechanical competency by said racer, or very deep pockets. And the latter is ignoring the challenge of finding someone competent to maintain it in whatever Perry's particular locale is.
This talk about the dealership premium though? Right. Good luck finding a Porsche dealer that will touch a 928.
Schmidlap said:
I have no answers for you but I do love 928s. Do you know what year the 928 is? The power varied from about 220hp when introduced up to 345hp in the last year of production so "how fast is it" isn't a simple answer.
You might find info in the forums over at Rennlist. Here's a link to the 928 forum there. The 928 forum is geared towards road cars, naturally, but you can probably find help. There is a performance/competition forum there but it is dominated by 911, 944, Cayman/Boxster stuff. There are also full factory service manuals and other info available there.
Here's a thread on Corner-carvers where a guy documents upgrading a 928 for track duty as well as restoring a few. Lots of good info, lots of cool pictures.
Thanks Perry will check it out.
rslifkin said:
In reply to frenchyd :
To some extent, I think that says if you have a specific car (and maybe a specific build) in mind, you might have to look around a bit to find a type of racing that's suitable without having to spend a ton of money to be competitive.
You may be right about that. What I don't understand is why?
Make sure the car is safe and then turn it loose in practice. Group them based on lap times in groups of 10(5?) and let them race. If they "break out". They are disqualified, they can finish the race but not eligible for trophy.
pres589 (djronnebaum) said:
I'm stalling on doing something productive so I'll share some thoughts here instead. NOTE: I have driven a 928 about 50 feet total, pulling it into and back out of a tire shop I worked at, so I'm clearly an expert in these. I also have never raced anything properly, so expert there as well. Pretty much a clear authority on everything being discussed here.
I think if a guy could gut the interior on these, really study the parts supply for the items that remain, and keep spares around he should be able to race one okay. I think it would be easier to keep these on a track vs. on a street where things like broken A/C, power radio antennas, etc etc would be noticed. Did you know there was an optional rear air-consistent that has some shared and some on-purpose components? It's like they wanted to make A Complicated German Car in the time before the CAN bus existed so they had to find other ways to do it. They're also not very good aerodynamically and they're heavy so there is a big "why are you doing this again?" question to it.
I still think these are cool, and if I had a couple yards of extra cash laying around for a car that was meant for covering serious distance, one of these might make the cut. Components being no longer available would be my biggest fear like has been mentioned already. But if the car is a manual, and simplifying the daylights out of the interior is okay, then why not? I mean, we're not talking about this because it's the most rational way to get a car onto a track.
p.s. why are you always talking about Jags? Nobody uses the XJ anything as a benchmark for anything.
Because it's the only bench mark I have. Well I suppose I could use my MGTD because that has about 20 vintage races under its belt. But it's very close to stock with 54 horsepower. Unless you're in that group, yawn!!!!!!!!
I could use my Chevy engine building experience. But it seems like everybody with a pulse is an "expert" on those.
However if you've ever actually rebuilt a V12 you will be impressed. Most open that hood and run screaming from them. If they would look at Group 44's engine they would fall in love with it.
But honestly things are so packed into the street version the factory honestly air conditions the fuel line!! On the sedan with the battery under the hood. The battery has its own fan!!!
In reply to frenchyd :
Is your middle name Perry? Wandering eyes...
Or did you google "XJS competitors" and see that the 928 was the biggest competitor during the XJS production run and wanted to know more about it? Let's make this an XJS vs 928 thread.
They are OK cars stock, I put quite a few miles on before switching to a 3KGT VR4 which was better in every way. It's a rear wheel drive V8 with decent power and a good chassis, not fast but a good cruiser. I can't see it as a good race car without a lot of work.
yupididit said:
In reply to frenchyd :
Is your middle name Perry? Wandering eyes...
Or did you google "XJS competitors" and see that the 928 was the biggest competitor during the XJS production run and wanted to know more about it? Let's make this an XJS vs 928 thread.
Nope, I haven't seen a 928 on the track. As I said I don't know diddly about Porsche. Guys who know I vintage race ask me questions, I try to help.
Knowing nothing about them I'd think they'd be competitive. My bias tends to tell me there are European cars that have raced in ETC Audi, BMW, Benz, Porsche, Volvo. Should be of similar performance.
Very high maintenance cars for the track. Heavy and by todays standards under powered. These are GT /Autobon cruzers all day long and while they can be made to hendle they are much happier at sustained high speed for long periods.
If you think prep for a Chevy motor is 30k double that for equivalent performance for a 928 motor. For racing I would dump the 928 motor in the trash and just LS swap it. The haters wil hate me but in the long run it would be much cheeper and more reliable. Spend 10k on a doctors zo6 motor and add a tune. Spend the other 20k on the swap and you would have a really fun car. Probibly with the AC and the power steering working as well.
Another thaught is that Porsche does a decent job in getting performance out of there engines. They are usually optimized with in the limitations of there design. While you can squeeze more out of them it is exponentially more expensive to improve porsch motors than many other motors.
These cars are rather slow by todays standards if I remember they were built for sustained high speed and much less of all out acceleration. .
As for the rest of the car the bearings would need attention as would the brakes. Torque tube bearings will need to be replaced. Then there is the clutch. The 944 guys take 928 breaks and put them on there cars. That combination works as a 944 probably is 1000 lbs lighter.
I have seen only one 928 track car and the owner loved it but even he admitted it was a very needy car with high dollar parts needed to keep it on track. This was the flagship car of its time and commanded premium prices for its parts. That has not really changed.
I remember they had literally miles of wiring, so gutting the car down to basics would probably save alot of weight. There was some weissach axle stuff that made handling when lowered an issue, the 928 forums may discuss this or if you can find old issues of excellence there was an article about this. Regarding power comparing the 928 70s tech to a relatively modern LS is just unfair.
In reply to dean1484 :
Vintage racing would not accept a Chevy engine in a Porsche.
Besides Corvettes and Camaro's as little as 5 years old are legal in vintage racing. So if you like a Chevy keep it all Chevy and come out and play. Then you'd be legal.
As far as running a Porsche 928? It's not for me. I prefer Jaguars. But he bought it new and doesn't want to spend what a restoration on it would cost.
It's really unsatisfying to own a high performance car and be stuck with the same speed limits everybody has to obey.
He could do HPDE and thst was my first suggestion but I guess he's got a racing bug. I understand wanting to race what you've got rather than go out and buy something different because it might be cheaper.
In reply to frenchyd :
Given that they seem to be similar to the XJS in price, weight, performance and weak aftermarket. If I were you, I'd suggest to Perry to give the car the same treatment you give your XJS to make it race ready. Gut it, suspension mods, good set of pads and run it! If he wants 650hp, throw a pair of turbos on it.
Frenchy, for what you described.
How is getting this and just cleaning up it's prep not a better option than prepping a 928 (that you admit not many people have raced or really provide racing support for)?
https://www.racingjunk.com/vintage/184421518/84-camaro-road-race-track-day-car.html
I'm just arguing that it's better economically and practically. Finding a machine shop that can build a decent motor for a Camaro isn't a complex research project. Heck, you can literally pick one of several mail order outfits and have a new ready to go engine delivered to your door. For someone not very mechanically inclined, they need a simple package.
I mean, you did ask for our advice.
I disagree with your assessment of $30k to build a 600hp Chevy V8 for roadrace. I believe you can easily find circle track crate engines for less than $20k ready to go delivered that would take minimal oiling conversion to work well. (And that's the falling off the log easy spend the money option, much much cheaper can be done)
dculberson said:
Even though it's easy to bait you into the Chevy V8 discussion I wish people wouldn't do it. Perry's 928 does not deserve a Chevy V8, the engine in it is a good one. He should race it and it would be awesome. If not, he should sell it to me for cheap I will fill it with lumber from your house on the way back.
Got a really great deal on all the Cherry you can handle.
