Tell Me Why I Shouldn't Build an RA64 Celica Rally Car

I know some stuff about these, but maybe not all.  I owned one.  It was glorious.  Picture of mine:  

I'm scheming about the next stage rally car and these are on the short list.  Here's an overview of what the plan would be, as of right now:

Suspension:
-Front 8.5" travel custom struts built around a Bilstein 40mm inverted damper (I have these on the shelf currently as spares, and have made similar struts for the Merkur) [stock travel is 7.25"] and boxed stock control arms
-Rear 10" travel coilovers (Afco, Bilstein, or Fox), turrets tied into cage, equal length 4 link made with circle track parts, reinforced stock axle initially with eventual plan to adapt Toyota pickup axle

Chassis:
-Buy a car from somewhere without road salt
-Typical FIA 253 rally cage, tied into strut towers.  Reinforce everything that sees suspension loads.  Seam weld.

Drivetrain:
-Stock 22R and 5 speed initially (tough as long as you don't rev it high enough to fling rods everywhere, just slow)
-Eventual plan for Beams 3sge and J160 6 speed (to go in with truck axle)

Brakes:
-Stock discs up front, convert to discs and Supra calipers in rear.  Reassess if this seems like it's not enough, but this would allow for 14" wheels and therefore lighter tires.

Known issues:
-Weak steering arms.  Solve with big billet CNC ones (they are a bolt on part).
-Chassis weakness.  Tying the cage in everywhere would be important.  Double plating all attachment points, etc.
-Parts availability.  Many parts are shared with the Supra and AE86 meaning there are aftermarket options, but there are probably holes in availability.
-???

Tell me why not.  The car would be built in two stages, with chassis/suspension prep happening from the start and then an engine swap and truck axle when I have the parts.  Entire shell would be 3D scanned at the start of the project to allow parts to be designed later.

Yes, I drank too much coffee this morning but I'm excited about this.  Picture for inspiration.

I see nothing that can go wrong with this plan. 

But it is a lot more work and $$ to build a new rally car vs fixing the one you have. But then again you probably thought that the first time the merkur broke...

In reply to Robbie :

I'm doing both.  Eventually.  This is something I'd get into the beginning design and fabrication stages of while continuing to sort and compete with the Merkur, then sell that car to fund the $$$ purchases for this one.

honestly I think the RX8 is a REALLY interesting idea. I think it would be better in performance, safety, parts availability, costs of cars and donors and parts, higher likelihood that you can find something to fix your broken rally car when you are in the middle of nowhere on a saturday, etc. 

But the RX8 is a lot bigger in width and WB, so that sucks. Just like in basketball - you can't teach tall. 

Yes, you should do it. 

With a 13b.

In reply to EvanB :

I've thought about "fixing" the Merkur with a 13b...

In reply to Robbie :

The problem with an RX8 is that I'd have to cut out the entire suspension and start over.  I have looked pretty hard at them and I don't think the stock links (front or rear) are up to rally use at all.  I'd probably run an FC subframe/control arms/struts up front and a 4 linked live axle out back but at that point... how much of the car am I really keeping?

If the Merkur has taught me anything it's that parts availability stops mattering once you have at least one spare of everything... unless those parts and spares are all garbage.  The appeal of the Toyota stuff is that I have personally put a lot of hard miles on it so I know it isn't weak.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯ said:

In reply to EvanB :

I've thought about "fixing" the Merkur with a 13b...

 

use this as the fuel injector:

Is this the same as the car that the Andersons run in stage rally?

Might be a good idea to reach out to them to pick their brain.

In reply to artur1808 :

Yes.  I have been pushed by that car when our RX7 was broken 

No arguments from me. I love old Toyotas. Somewhere in my "dream garage" is a parking spot for a '77 Celica liftback. 

I only see the "Buy a car from somewhere without road salt" part is being most difficult.  These cars have a following so finding one that is reasonably rust-free and fits in your budget may be tricky.  But... you seem to be better at finding cars like that than I am.

Why did you sell the black one?

In reply to Ian F :

I'm not concerned about that- there is one in NC that is tempting, and if all else fails I know a few open parking spots in California that can hold one for me until I get to it.  They're still relatively common out there.

My black one was sold because it was rusting to pieces and at the time I needed a pickup.  So I replaced it with a Toyota pickup with the same drivetrain.

I know a guy that likes to wander around North Carolina if you need eyes on it

Check rear hub and bearing availability, a few years ago I was unable to source 1 and could only get them 250 a time via Alibaba. If they're available in the wild at this point, then I say go for it. 

In reply to Dusterbd13-michael :

You've got mail.

In reply to ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ :

You have a reply!

Are these old enough to run in a historic class? Do they still have one of those? 

In reply to mazdeuce - Seth :

It seems to exist on a rally by rally basis.  Previously it has been 30yrs or older so it qualifies for those.

Look into these vans for a rearend. Usually 4.10 gears, and take the lockers for 2wd Toyota pickups. Also, the front chunk from 88-94 trucks. It is the proper bolt pattern to match the front. Some were even 4-link with panhard bars.

Robbie said:

honestly I think the RX8 is a REALLY interesting idea. I think it would be better in performance, safety, parts availability, costs of cars and donors and parts, higher likelihood that you can find something to fix your broken rally car when you are in the middle of nowhere on a saturday, etc. 

But the RX8 is a lot bigger in width and WB, so that sucks. Just like in basketball - you can't teach tall. 

interesting isn't usually the way to do well in rally though - almost everything has been "tried" (hell, even the Brakim guys trying to build a Lambo rally car). To my knowledge, only one RX-8 has run rally in the US, and as I recall it didn't do all that well and didn't do very many events (I could be wrong). If they had a significant upside, they are cheap enough that other people would be building them (meanwhile, plenty of 1st and 2nd gen RX7s still rallying).  Who knows, though. That's just my own opinion mostly. 

Chris.....you have a trailer, I have a trailer, and there are those two Celicas down in N.C. with your name on them ;) I have to trailer an e30 shell to Richmond soon, so I'll be halfway there already.

Or, I'm still planning to do the cross-country Porsche trip at some point hopefully in the next year....we'll just pick up a Celica on the left coast once we get there ;)

¯\_(ツ)_/¯ said:

In reply to artur1808 :

Yes.  I have been pushed by that car when our RX7 was broken 

I have loaned an electric fan out of our rally spares kit to that car during a rally, when theirs failed, as I recall. 

In reply to ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ :

Like this one for half Challenge budget?

Or maybe this one for not much more that’s running/driving?

mazdeuce - Seth said:

Are these old enough to run in a historic class? Do they still have one of those? 

yes, it's called NASA 2WD class. Almost everything in it is historic, it seems :D

In reply to irish44j :

That's kind of why I asked that question. I love looking at the parc ferme pictures, it's like Radwood on dirt. 

I am trying to get to god level with my enabling. I have a trip scheduled for sunday.....

mazdeuce - Seth said:

In reply to irish44j :

That's kind of why I asked that question. I love looking at the parc ferme pictures, it's like Radwood on dirt. 

I mean, plenty of modern FWD cars running, but it seems that NRS events are where the "old cars" go to run, since there's not all the hype around those events with the big-name Subaru teams and such. Most of those cars are also at the big ARA events, but they get drowned out by the 25 Subarus ;)