This thread got me to thinking about the Chevy II (a very legitimate "muscle car") and I was trying to remember who it was that campaigned a Chevy II in road racing back in the mid-60's? Novas are almost universally thought of as drag machines, but I recall that this guy had some success with it on a road course.
In reply to NOT A TA :
The early "muscle cars" were point and shoot cars. As previously stated brakes were terrible. My 65 and 68 GTOs had drum brakes. Narrow bias ply tires were also limiting factors. I drove a 65 with tri power and remember the car wanting to oversteer under hard acceleration in 3rd gear. Suspension was not upgraded allowing for body roll and poor traction. My 69 SS Camaro (pony car) was better because smaller and lighter. Improvements in steering, suspension and brakes came with factory involvement in Trans Am series. My 75 Trans Am was a far better handling and performing car even though it had less horse power.
My 65 and 66 Corvettes with 327s were better handling and seem to have better brakes. My BIL had a 64 with the 365? horse power 327 and the biggest Holley I ever saw on a car. That was quick.
The most brutal car I ever drove was a 70 Trans Am Ram Air IV 455 HO owned by my SIL in the mid 70s. The steering wheel cover had indentations where your thumbs came in contact with the spokes. They were caused by gripping the wheel with both hands tightly when unleashing the power and torque of that engine and attempting to keep the car under control.
I worked in Mopar, Chevrolet and Ford dealership shops during the 60s and 70s. Cars with high horse power engines came in every size and description. Aftermarket cars built by Motion, Yenko and other were also sold thru dealerships. Those were the days until insurance, emmissions and gasoline prices put an end to it by 1974-75.
If you drive any of those 60s/70s cars today you will find they can not come close to most cars of today.
Would this be easier if I just said "American cars, pre '75, rwd"?
Hemi Cuda - 1/4 in 14 secs.
My 2.0 street car with mild mods - 1/4 in 12.9.
Some of that was the rubber used back in the day in the road tests but honestly, those cars were ill handling and braking barges.
I took one (72 GTO with 455 HO engine and the beginning of improved handling) around my local road track. Could hardly stop laughing it was so ponderous.
If what you are after is a lot of noise and smoke, they are good for that, but I wouldn't own one on a bet today.
When it comes to the brutal fastest in a straight line, I think that title goes to the 1970 Chevelle LS6. Claimed 450 gross HP, but closer to 500 gross. Others claimed similar 450-ish gross numbers, but didn't perform quite like the Chevelle.
The hot matchups at the strip in 1970 were the Chevelles, the Judges, and the Mopar 440 cars. Every once in a while a Buick GS 455 would get the jump on them, as they had a wee bit more breathing. They tended to shift a little later depending on the rear gear.
You'll get a million different definitions of what a "muscle car" is. The real definition as most hot rodders like myself see it is: Any 64ish to 72ish intermediate car (not pony iike Mustang or Camaro, not corvette, not full size) that was optioned in a way that had the least number of options and the most powerful engine available for that year/car. In truth, since they are all easily modded to remove any of those options, they are all really considered muscle cars since they're from the muscle car era, but the important part is the year range and the intermediate size. The only real exception to that was the Chevy 2 was technically considered a compact, but since it was similar in actual size to an intermediate and could still be ordered with a big block, it has earned a spot.
Here is a list of muscle cars that MuscleCarClub.com says are muscle cars, but they're ridiculously wrong. My omissions in italic
AMC AMX
AMC Special Vehicles
Buick Grand National
Buick GS
Buick Riviera
Buick Skylark
Buick Wildcat
Chevrolet Camaro
Chevrolet Chevelle SS
Chevrolet Corvette
Chevrolet El Camino SS
Chevrolet Impala SS
Chevrolet Monte Carlo
Chevrolet Nova SS
Chrysler 300
Dodge Challenger
Dodge Charger
Dodge Coronet
Dodge Dart
Dodge Daytona
Dodge Super Bee
Ford Fairlane/Torino
Ford Galaxie
Ford Mustang
Ford Thunderbird
Mercury Comet/ Cyclone
Mercury Cougar
Oldsmobile 442
Oldsmobile Toronado
Plymouth Barracuda
Plymouth Duster
Plymouth GTX
Plymouth Road Runner
Plymouth Superbird
Pontiac Catalina 2+2
Pontiac Firebird
Pontiac Grand Prix
Pontiac GTO
In reply to Vajingo :
"Muscle Cars" are not known for doing any of the mentioned activities except for the 1/4 mile.
What you are looking for is a Porsche of some sort since budget does not seem to matter. I think they own the lap around the ring ( that lap would cover most of your requirements) with something called a 919?
If it hs to be affordable, then I might side with the Vette option. Next step up is over 100k
The most important thing for a muscle car? They are fun. Might not be the fastest compared to some modern cars or the best handling, but drive one and try not to smile.
There are a lot of good cars for different reasons and lots will put a smile on your face, but these beasts are hard to beat.
Vajingo said:Would this be easier if I just said "American cars, pre '75, rwd"?
Early 70's big block 454 Corvette.
Pretty sure they are all slow compared to a 2004 honda odyssey. Maybe a few could beat the odyssey at the drag strip. Maybe.
Motor trend tested a 70 gs stage 1 on 1970 and stated it was the fasted car they had tested to that point. The Buick v8 always had lots of power and torque even in the more regular trims stuff like the electras and rivieras from back then can show up muscle cars etc occasionally.
PO said "muscle car"
You guys keep bringing up things that aren't that.
Yes, lots of things are faster.
Hayabusa /thread.
1988RedT2 said:This thread got me to thinking about the Chevy II (a very legitimate "muscle car") and I was trying to remember who it was that campaigned a Chevy II in road racing back in the mid-60's? Novas are almost universally thought of as drag machines, but I recall that this guy had some success with it on a road course.
Okay, for those with an interest in ancient history:
Norm Beechey drove a Chevy II in the Australian Touring Car Championship at Bathurst in 1966. After jumping out to a good lead, he eventually lost the race to Ian Geoghegan in a Mustang as the drum brakes on the Nova gradually gave out.
Another cool Nova pic, same driver, different race:
Gearheadotaku (Forum Supporter) said:The most important thing for a muscle car? They are fun. Might not be the fastest compared to some modern cars or the best handling, but drive one and try not to smile.
There are a lot of good cars for different reasons and lots will put a smile on your face, but these beasts are hard to beat.
My 67 LeMans has E36 M3ty brakes, about 200 smoky hp, zero sound deadening, leaky window weatherstripping, rattles, handles worse than a marshmallow.... and nothing puts a smile on my face like I get when I drive it.
1988RedT2 said:This thread got me to thinking about the Chevy II (a very legitimate "muscle car") and I was trying to remember who it was that campaigned a Chevy II in road racing back in the mid-60's? Novas are almost universally thought of as drag machines, but I recall that this guy had some success with it on a road course.
I know they were used in Australia back then in touring car racing. The first gen camaro is in reality really just a shorter wheelbase Chevy 11.
Dan gurney took this 409 impala over to the uk and blew the Jaguars away then jag promptly got the car banned.
Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) said:Gearheadotaku (Forum Supporter) said:The most important thing for a muscle car? They are fun. Might not be the fastest compared to some modern cars or the best handling, but drive one and try not to smile.
There are a lot of good cars for different reasons and lots will put a smile on your face, but these beasts are hard to beat.
My 67 LeMans has E36 M3ty brakes, about 200 smoky hp, zero sound deadening, leaky window weatherstripping, rattles, handles worse than a marshmallow.... and nothing puts a smile on my face like I get when I drive it.
Exactly. In the year 2021, no one is driving a car built in the mid-60's for reasons of performance. It's nostalgia, an appreciation of what has come before, the sights, the sounds, etc.
If we are considering the Camaro SS 1LE a muscle car, then I have absolutely no doubt in my mind that the SS 1LE is the fastest realistically affordable muscle car you can buy today, bar none. Whether it's road racing, drag racing, autoX, if you're a solid driver I have no doubts you'll easily be one of the quickest people out there, bone stock. They are damn near bulletproof, and surprisingly easy to drive fast especially with how good the GM PTM is.
Vajingo said:Would this be easier if I just said "American cars, pre '75, rwd"?
The OP changed the parameters ^^^.
I was thinking about this while working and although I put 70-71 Vette in my previous post I'll add that a 73 455 SD Trans Am with the radial tire option could possibly be the road course, auto-x, drag combination winner. The radial tire advantage on the Auto-x and road course might make up for any horsepower to weight ratio advantage the Corvette might have and Corvettes were limited to 350 engines by the time radials arrived AFIK.
In reply to 1988RedT2 :
Chevy II / Nova is a compact car. Back then they were called "junior super cars" because the engines weren't as big and the performance not as much. To answer your question, the Chevy II had terrible suspension (and no wheelwell space for big tires) and handled terribly, even for the time. The later Nova with the Camaro subframe did better, but the Camaro was better in every measurable way, so nobody bothered.
NOT A TA said:Vajingo said:Would this be easier if I just said "American cars, pre '75, rwd"?
The OP changed the parameters ^^^.
Shelby Cobra.
Javelin (Forum Supporter) said:In reply to 1988RedT2 :
To answer your question, the Chevy II had terrible suspension (and no wheelwell space for big tires) and handled terribly, even for the time.
Huh. Well, thanks for that.
Funny thing is, I don't recall asking "What made the Chevy II such a lousy car?" My question was "What race car driver drove a Chevy II in road races back in the day?"
The answer, as it turns out, is Stormin' Norman Beechey.
Have a nice day! 
Fastest muscle car? A first gen Viper!
1988RedT2 said:Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) said:Gearheadotaku (Forum Supporter) said:The most important thing for a muscle car? They are fun. Might not be the fastest compared to some modern cars or the best handling, but drive one and try not to smile.
There are a lot of good cars for different reasons and lots will put a smile on your face, but these beasts are hard to beat.
My 67 LeMans has E36 M3ty brakes, about 200 smoky hp, zero sound deadening, leaky window weatherstripping, rattles, handles worse than a marshmallow.... and nothing puts a smile on my face like I get when I drive it.
Exactly. In the year 2021, no one is driving a car built in the mid-60's for reasons of performance. It's nostalgia, an appreciation of what has come before, the sights, the sounds, etc.
Or they've spent craploads of money to make it as good as a new Civic Si.
NOHOME said:In reply to Vajingo :
"Muscle Cars" are not known for doing any of the mentioned activities except for the 1/4 mile.
What you are looking for is a Porsche of some sort since budget does not seem to matter. I think they own the lap around the ring ( that lap would cover most of your requirements) with something called a 919?
If it hs to be affordable, then I might side with the Vette option. Next step up is over 100k
Pretty sure some folks aren't getting the point of this thread. We are looking for the quickest car in a category and era. See my above post where I said it Has to be American, pre-1975, and rear wheel drive. We are looking for a car that can be the "it does it all", or it could three different cars, one for each category! Yeesh! I am so sorry that the term muscle car was misapplied. Had I known it would cause this much frantic hand wringing I would not of even used it!
there was pretty much nothing domestic stock that could turn well without dragging the door mirror(s). If you're looking at potential, then anything can with enough money. But stock? Yeah.... suspension geometry was voodoo to them and brakes were a mere suggestion at best. Even the Corvettes of the era were really not good at that stuff.
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