The "how about you write it up for less" on the bill of sale thing.

Tom_Spangler wrote: This has to be one of the most widely disobeyed laws here in Michigan, based on what I've heard.

Probably. Almost every time I've bought a cheap car (so all the crappy cars I buy ) the seller has left it blank and said "Just put in whatever you want." I'm a good citizen so I put in what I've paid. Supposedly that's what helps pay to fix our roads, right? When selling I've never had anyone ask me to put in a lesser value though. Maybe it's just assumed, ha.

mazdeuce wrote:

calteg wrote: Texas has an "minimum tax", so it's a moot point with GRM type vehicles

They finally realized we were all lying all the time.

I happen to buy (in Texas)very bottom dollar cars that may have severe, but repairable by me defects. I had a rather long discussion with our tax assessor when she tried to tax me on a 1991 Escort at $1400. I only paid $200 for the car and it had no engine! When questioned about the source of this figure, I went to Kelly Blue book (her source) and showed her that running cars in Excellent condition was only $900! After 45 minutes of my polite questions, the clerk literally fled saying she was going to get her supervisor. I stepped over to the next clerk and started over!

This clerk asked the same questions and also stated that her chart only went back to 1992 and she could not do the $200 price and had told me she could just bump it to a 1992 and.......$359 was the stated value. About 3 minutes, payed the lady, thanked her and even waited around about 10 more minutes in case the "supervisor" showed up. He didn't.

As for giving documents that state an incorrect amount...NO!

As for "realizing" that someone is lying, this is a presumption of guilt without evidence.

Bruce

dculberson wrote:

Paul_VR6 wrote:

BrokenYugo wrote: I've never filled in the price box on a title when selling a car, that's the buyer's problem.

THIS

In Ohio they're sticklers on it now, the notary isn't even supposed to notarize the title unless the buyer's name, address, mileage, and sale price are listed. It's to prevent curbstoners (non-licensed dealers) and sales tax fraud. Some notaries will still notarize it but if you take an unfilled title to the DMV they get pretty upset about it and require additional documentation and sales price affidavits. Can be a pain in the butt.

We don't have to get titles notarized any more.

Also in SC you pay sales tax when you lease a car and pay property tax on a leased car you don't own.

This. The guy that bought my last 911 tried this…and I got a letter asking what the real sales price was. Sorry dude…not gonna lie. No big deal-they just wanted their money and as soon as he paid up, the problem was solved.

dculberson wrote: In Ohio they're sticklers on it now, the notary isn't even supposed to notarize the title unless the buyer's name, address, mileage, and sale price are listed. It's to prevent curbstoners (non-licensed dealers) and sales tax fraud. Some notaries will still notarize it but if you take an unfilled title to the DMV they get pretty upset about it and require additional documentation and sales price affidavits. Can be a pain in the butt.

I got caught on this in Ontario years ago. I paid a negotiated price and the seller put a lower price on the title.I get the new title without any issue but the authorities phoned the seller after the fact and asked him how much he sold it for. He either didn't remember our agreed title price, or didn't care and he quoted the real sale price. The penalty in Ontario for fibbing is to double the tax.After that episode I just stopped playing games, the negotiated price is it.

So, what happens when the bank has the title and I pay off the loan with the money from the buyer?

I guess this question only applies if they send the title to the buyer and not to me.

I guess this thread came about because, I want to sell this Focus ST ($19500 for a 10k mile 2014 loaded one btw, see ad in FS section), but the last two people with interest were just really wanting to get me to lop money off the sale price on the title and then lost interest after I expressed hesitation in doing that.

And there are some screwy exceptions to the rule. When the wife and I got married we wanted to put both our names on the titles to our cars.

Back then the legal age was 21. My wife bought her car when she was 19 so both her name and her mother's names were on the title. We could not transfer the title without paying taxes, but my mother-in-law could make a gift of it to my wife without paying taxes even though she was just 20 at the time.

However, they had no problems with putting the wife's name on the title to my car without paying any taxes. Maybe because I was 25 at the time?

In ma the tax on a car sold by a dealer is based on the price tge dealer said you paid. Private sales are taxed based there data base. I was told it is based on clean private sale price from NADA.

GameboyRMH wrote:

Keith Tanner wrote: We get that request all the time from international customers. They want us to lowball the invoice so they don't have to pay the full import duties and taxes. Once you use the term "fraudulent" they usually back off.

Came here to say this, it's mail fraud if you do it while sending a package, and some kind of other fraud otherwise. When you see the import duties that some countries charge which people then have to pay in 3rd-world money, you can see why they try though.

Tax evasion most likely....Personally, I believe selling used stuff private party that it really is double taxation, but our tax rate is low enough I don't really care as much as I should.

oldtin wrote: IL goes by year of the vehicle to 15 years old, then a flat fee unless it's over $15,000. I did ask a seller to write up a bill of sale for $14,999 (on a $15,000 sale) which saved me a $1,000 in tax.

Yeah, my $275 951 cost me three times that in taxes in Illinois. I hate Illinois nazis....

spitfirebill wrote: SC charges a sale tax on all car sales, but right now its capped at $300. Once it goes on the tax rolls, you pay property taxes based on some obscure book value. Our property taxes on cars are a good reason not to buy new cars. When I sell a vehicle, I sign the title and hand to them, saying, its between your God and your conscience as to what you put down for the sales price.

This.

In reply to Hal:

In your example, you shouldn't have to pay any tax as you already did when you bought it the first time....been there, wasted 3hrs with the Neanderthals at the BMV before finally getting them to agree with me.

Something I've always loved about Oregon. They don't even care. So when I sell a car to Washingtonians I just write "gifted to so-and-so for free". no tax for them. The hilarious part is everyone does this, and their dmv doesn't care.

I thought they were pilfering lottery money to pay for the roads. That and the most recent gas tax. Hell if I know, I can't keep track of it.

I do know I have never lied on the sale price of a vehicle when it comes to titles. I always put what they are worth.

BlueInGreen44 wrote:

Tom_Spangler wrote: This has to be one of the most widely disobeyed laws here in Michigan, based on what I've heard.

Probably. Almost every time I've bought a cheap car (so all the crappy cars I buy ) the seller has left it blank and said "Just put in whatever you want." I'm a good citizen so I put in what I've paid. Supposedly that's what helps pay to fix our roads, right? When selling I've never had anyone ask me to put in a lesser value though. Maybe it's just assumed, ha.

This thread looks like a good place for investigators to find people who are tax evaders or are aiding and abetting.

Assisting a fraud is still fraud.

In reply to SVreX:

I always fill it out. Price it is.. but I can't remeber the last time I sold a car.. maybe my civic to Estey a while ago.. He got a steal.

SVreX wrote: This thread looks like a good place for investigators to find people who are tax evaders or are aiding and abetting. Assisting a fraud is still fraud.

Yeah. That's why I ALWAYS put the right price on there. Every time. Without fail. No doubt about it.....

In reply to SVreX:

I should elaborate, I only leave the price field blank so I have an excuse to educate the buyer on how bad tax fraud against the great state of Michigan is and have them fill it in with the full sale price before I hand the keys over.

The "how about you write it up for less" on the bill of sale thing can work out great for the seller. Consider my home state of Massachusetts: DMV doesn't care what your private-party bill of sale says, they charge sales tax on whatever they deem "book value" to be, unless you bought the car from a licensed dealer. At the same time, cars $700 and over have to be warrantied for thirty days and guaranteed to pass Massachusetts state inspection. It's an ABSURD law written in 1980, never updated and still enforced. The upshot for the seller then, is that if the car fails (which at that price point, it probably will), the car is as-is and it's not your problem. Let's say the car was $1000 and you wrote it up for $700 because you forgot $699 was the threshold. Now when the indignant buyer comes back demanding a refund because the car failed inspection, you only have to give them the $700 they can prove they paid for it. I've never had to do that, but threatening to has made unhappy buyers go away (they can't sue you for the full $1000 and admit to asking for a fraudulent bill of sale, too, so they're limited by the amount listed on the document).

Selling my crap cars of course I've run into this. Last time it happened, I filled out the title completely, with the correct sales price despite the request otherwise. I simply told him, "No. I will write the complete amount, and if anyone ever asks, I will tell them the honest sale price." It was about then we had a discussion about the eraseable pen I was using and how tip pressure directly impacts deformation of paper.

Nick (LUCAS) Comstock wrote: I bought and sold a lot of "$150" dollar cars in Ohio.

Same here. My complaint is that the sales tax was paid on the vehicle when it was new, why does it get paid over and over each time it changes hands?

If we were honest about writing down transaction prices, there wouldn't be book-value laws