Thinking over an ND1 Miata purchase...

Last season I had the joy of co-driving an ND2 Miata at autocross and I loved it. It still amazes me how it manages to have vaguely modern crash safety while still being as light as it is. Maybe my searching skills aren't as good as some others, but I can't really find too much specific information about the ND1 Miata's engine. It seems to be a Mazda 3 engine and the ND1 and ND2 difference is mostly an increased redline, right? Trying to gauge their common quirks/reliability issues (if there are any?). I know the ND1 is rumored to have trouble with their transmissions but this one has a V5 that was put into it under warranty.

What are you looking to do with an ND1? Street car only or autoX? If autoX, are you looking to really compete or just have fun? If compete, how competitive is your local chapter?

It is my understanding that yes, the ND1's engine is directly pulled from a Mazda 3 and rotated 90 degrees. It's an inexpensive economy car engine. Overseas, the ND was designed for their higher revving 1.5L engine, but Mazda NA knew wouldn't sell well here, so they threw in the 2.0L economy car engine to give it some extra torque as tweaking it wasn't in the budget at the time.

For the ND2, they did spend the money to make the engine rev. From what I've read, they weren't really looking for more horsepower per se, they just wanted to make it sing at higher RPM's and feel like a sports car engine. My understanding is that they tweaked the following;

• Lighter Pistons and Connecting Rods: Reduce reciprocating mass and improve revving characteristics.

• Larger Intake and Exhaust Valves: Enhances airflow, increasing efficiency and power.

• Revised Camshaft Profiles: Helps increase performance at higher rpm.

• Dual-Mass Flywheel: Smooths out vibrations and makes the car more refined, especially at high rpm.

• Exhaust Header Revisions: Reduces back pressure for better breathing.

Making it rev just had the added benefit of adding more power.

I believe they have similar reliability ratings (maybe I'm mistaken?). But the ND2 engine is literally just a hot-rodded ND1 engine. 
 

The only big reliability difference I'm aware of is the early transmissions were more fragile, but it sounds like that was already taken care of. 

I'm mostly looking for a fun street car to use as my daily. I already have a STR/CST prepped NB1 Miata and I usually have access to co-drives. At the right price, I think this ND1 might fit the bill of what I want.

I've owned both ND1 and ND2 -- comparison of the two is here ==> https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/project-cars/2019-nd-mx-5/optimizing-our-miataby-replacing-the-car-project-t/

For a fun street car, the ND1 will be fine -- in fact, slightly better torque in the street-use mid-range.  Just doesn't rev so high.  If you never drive an ND2, you'll not know what you are missing.

As for transmissions, being on a V5 should be adequate for street use.  Once I broke my V1 on my early-build ND1, the warranty replacement V5 lasted a couple years of hard track use until I traded the car on the updated ND2 model.

The cars have no other serious foibles, and the aftermarket is full of upgrade opportunities to enhance the experience.  Wheels and tires are #1, then exhaust (the stock exhaust is way too quiet)

Get back to us once you make the purchase and we'll help you spend the rest of your bank account. 

Andy Hollis said:

I've owned both ND1 and ND2 -- comparison of the two is here ==> https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/articles/how-optimize-nd-chassis-mazda-mx-5-comfort-street-/

For a fun street car, the ND1 will be fine -- in fact, slightly better torque in the street-use mid-range.  Just doesn't rev so high.  If you never drive an ND2, you'll not know what you are missing.

As for transmissions, being on a V5 should be adequate for street use.  Once I broke my V1 on my early-build ND1, the warranty replacement V5 lasted a couple years of hard track use until I traded the car on the updated ND2 model.

The cars have no other serious foibles, and the aftermarket is full of upgrade opportunities to enhance the experience.  Wheels and tires are #1, then exhaust (the stock exhaust is way too quiet)

Get back to us once you make the purchase and we'll help you spend the rest of your bank account. 

Andy Hollis said:

I've owned both ND1 and ND2 -- comparison of the two is here ==> https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/project-cars/2019-nd-mx-5/optimizing-our-miataby-replacing-the-car-project-t/

For a fun street car, the ND1 will be fine -- in fact, slightly better torque in the street-use mid-range.  Just doesn't rev so high.  If you never drive an ND2, you'll not know what you are missing.

As for transmissions, being on a V5 should be adequate for street use.  Once I broke my V1 on my early-build ND1, the warranty replacement V5 lasted a couple years of hard track use until I traded the car on the updated ND2 model.

The cars have no other serious foibles, and the aftermarket is full of upgrade opportunities to enhance the experience.  Wheels and tires are #1, then exhaust (the stock exhaust is way too quiet)

Get back to us once you make the purchase and we'll help you spend the rest of your bank account. 

Sounds good to hear that it survived years of track abuse. Did you run the stock fluids or did you change to unicorn tears/something else?

I was replacing a RX-8 when I drove a ND1 so I was particularly sensitive to top end rev behavior and I felt like the top end revs bugged me a bit when the power delivery falls off. The ND2 I drove less than a year later felt like it solved that deficit - the engine feels wonderful.

On the plus side, the ND1 engine being the same as the Mazda3 engine means it only gives up a bit of character, rather than performance if you run 87 octane.

The ND seemed to do very well in crash testing, etc. Statistically it seems to be a very safe vehicle, but obviously many collision possibilities with a brodozer or larger vehicle will result in a monster truck situation. I don't have an ND right now because my wife was worried about my height and head exposure.

Snrub said:

I was replacing a RX-8 when I drove a ND1 so I was particularly sensitive to top end rev behavior and I felt like the top end revs bugged me a bit when the power delivery falls off. The ND2 I drove less than a year later felt like it solved that deficit - the engine feels wonderful.

On the plus side, the ND1 engine being the same as the Mazda3 engine means it only gives up a bit of character, rather than performance if you run 87 octane.

This particular ND1 Miata I'm looking at is a "decomissioned" STR car (due to ND1's being uncompetitive after the ND2 came out) so it has a full header/exhaust and a tune setup for 93 octane so I figure that might alleviate some of the top end concerns. Good to note though

I'll echo what Andy said - if you stay below 6000 rpm, you'll likely never notice the difference in the engines unless you're very sensitive to part throttle engine tuning. The multi-stage injection strategy is improved on the ND2. But a street sports car? They do just fine. 

When you get to 6000, the ND1 engine goes soft and loses interest while the ND2 engine wakes up. There hasn't been a Miata engine with that character since 1993, so it's not like the ND1 is a dog. If you want a taste of what the ND2 feels like, BBR sells a set of cams that will get you the same feel. A tune won't despite the claims. All tunes we ever tested on ND1s were disappointing, like the  "200 hp" setup that made 165.

If I were tracking one (and I have quite a bit), I'd install a transmission cooler. The temps get hot enough to break down the fluid and they don't drop for a very long time. 

Keith Tanner said:

I'll echo what Andy said - if you stay below 6000 rpm, you'll likely never notice the difference in the engines unless you're very sensitive to part throttle engine tuning. The multi-stage injection strategy is improved on the ND2. But a street sports car? They do just fine. 

When you get to 6000, the ND1 engine goes soft and loses interest while the ND2 engine wakes up. There hasn't been a Miata engine with that character since 1993, so it's not like the ND1 is a dog. If you want a taste of what the ND2 feels like, BBR sells a set of cams that will get you the same feel. A tune won't despite the claims. All tunes we ever tested on ND1s were disappointing, like the  "200 hp" setup that made 165.

If I were tracking one (and I have quite a bit), I'd install a transmission cooler. The temps get hot enough to break down the fluid and they don't drop for a very long time. 

Just the guy I was hoping to respond! Well, it sounds like for my intended use (street use/some fun driving. no autox/track) it'll be perfect. Thanks for the confirmation!

Keith Tanner said:

If I were tracking one (and I have quite a bit), I'd install a transmission cooler. The temps get hot enough to break down the fluid and they don't drop for a very long time. 

Speaking of transmission coolers, what happened to Flyin Miata's ND kit? 

As someone who owned a very early ND1 and currently owns an ND2, don't drive an ND2 if you're set on buying an ND1...

BoxheadTim said:

As someone who owned a very early ND1 and currently owns an ND2, don't drive an ND2 if you're set on buying an ND1...

I mean I've driven a few ND2's at autocross already and I just read about how the ND1 isnt much different from the ND2 unless you rev high. I figure if I'm just street driving it won't be bad considering I can get this one at a 7-8k "discount". I'll probably see how I feel after the test drive

In reply to BlueSkies (Forum Supporter) :

I think that's fair enough. I still prefer the ND2, but then again I also went from a Grand Touring (because the Launch Edition ND1 is a tarted up GT) to a Club and that probably made the bigger difference than the generations.

BoxheadTim said:

In reply to BlueSkies (Forum Supporter) :

I think that's fair enough. I still prefer the ND2, but then again I also went from a Grand Touring (because the Launch Edition ND1 is a tarted up GT) to a Club and that probably made the bigger difference than the generations.

I would definitely prefer the ND2-3 but this car seems to be a nice deal I can't pass up. It's got low mileage and a new V5 transmission and I figure it would make a fun daily. I've driven the NA, NB and NC Miata so I'm used to driving a motor that doesn't really feel special.

J_D said:

Keith Tanner said:

If I were tracking one (and I have quite a bit), I'd install a transmission cooler. The temps get hot enough to break down the fluid and they don't drop for a very long time. 

Speaking of transmission coolers, what happened to Flyin Miata's ND kit? 

Poor sales so it was discontinued, unfortunately. After doing the temperature testing, I was a firm believer in the necessity. 

I suspect most people on the board would have trouble telling the difference between and ND1 and ND2 engine below 6k. It's a good engine, very flexible and faster over the road than the power level would indicate. It's just missing the top end sparkle. 

For a street car, the dollar savings could go a long way. 

Keith Tanner said:

Poor sales so it was discontinued, unfortunately. After doing the temperature testing, I was a firm believer in the necessity. 

I guess the consumer option now is to hodgepodge a kit from MazdaMotorsports? 

In reply to J_D :

I could probably shake free a bill of materials, you'd just need to make a few brackets. The Global Cup cars use one too iirc, so that might be available. 

In reply to Keith Tanner :

I wonder if the inlet/outlet and hose lengths would be the same since they use the sequential box now? 

In reply to z31maniac :

That's not a big challenge to overcome :)