Thought Exercise - E30 M3 Alternative

stuart in mn wrote:

Greg Voth wrote: You do realize that E30 M3's aren't exactly fast. Like low - mid 15's in the 1/4.

Sometimes it's more fun to feel like you're going fast than to actually be going fast. :)

I realize that concept but when Per blows your doors off in his Honda Odessey while pulling the LeGrand its real hard to feel fast.

I understand the concept and have/had and driven lots of fast feeling slow cars. I like to be able to out minivans and get bored easily. Different strokes and all.

E30 with M50 (non VANOS) swap

Geekspeed wrote: Oops. I should have known better. I was thinking more about non-BMW products. The E30s are getting spendy around here. I have been hard-pressed to find a late E30 325is for less than 5k. How about a turbo Z31 or S13 240SX? I like the Starion in every way except for the boat-anchor motor. I think the fact that I am a child of the 80's has given me nostalgia for cars of that era.

Z31's handle like absolute a$$hole, the aftermarket is severely limited and they are HEAVY. Plus, the only thing harder to work on than a Z31 is a Z32...Starions at least have the handling potential there, you can make a Z31 really fast but there is not much out there anymore to make them turn.

Plus one for the Mercedes 190e 2.3 16v. Only in a Getrag though....

XR4Ti!

You can swap out the T9 for a much stronger T5 relatively easily and cheap. The Mustang 4cyl T5 from the Fox Mustangs are plentiful in the junkyards.

The rear suspension is very similar to the e30 semi trailing arms. Don't forget, the XR4Ti and the Sierra Cosworth both ran against the e30 M3 in the touring car championships through the 80s and early 90s.

Geekspeed wrote: How about a turbo Z31 or S13 240SX?

Handling: 240SX>E36>E30

An E36 325i is a good deal. I'd say it has enough power stock. Even the sport suspension is pretty soft however. I want to upgrade the suspension before power.

A 190E Cosworth would be interesting. It should be inferior to the E36 325i. I expect parts would be more expensive than an E30, but I am seeing more 190Es than E30s in junkyards around here (not any Cosworths though.)

M50 swap into an E30 is all the worse for handling. Find something lighter than an M20 to put in one, and you might have something.

SlickDizzy wrote: Everybody really likes to forget that these were sold in the USA for 4 years. They are out there, most seem to be on the east coast/west coast with few in between, and you'd be hard pressed to pay more than $2000 for an immaculate example.

Tell me about this... interested.

m4ff3w wrote: Milano Verde. You can find one under your 5k budget with room for upgrades.

tell me about this... interested

E30 318i/s turbo isn't a bad car, I think GRM made a project out of one.

E30 325i/s is a fantastic car, you just have to find an unmolested one without rust.

E36 318ti is a great suggestion as well, the FI route or S50B32 swap is as simple as it can get from what I've heard.

All of the aforementioned 3 series can be fitted with e30/e36 M3 suspension components to improve handling.

If you can't find a nice E30 in SoCal for under $5k, you aren't looking very hard.

Or quit being a Nancy and hop on a plane and drive on back.

Why do so many people seem afraid to do that?

tuna55 wrote:

m4ff3w wrote: Milano Verde. You can find one under your 5k budget with room for upgrades.

tell me about this... interested

I suppose the closest thing you could say would be a 944 with 4 doors.

Seriously.

The engine is tough - just be sure to change the timing belt. Mine never left me stranded - though for some reason the fuel pump was labeled "Optional Auxiliary Accessory" on the fuse panel. It took a bit to figure out why it wasn't running.

The the engine is very smooth - completely different experience than the Biturbo engine.

tuna55 wrote:

m4ff3w wrote: Milano Verde. You can find one under your 5k budget with room for upgrades.

tell me about this... interested

I had one too, it drove like a miata, but more fun and with more power. Mine got towed twice, once when the clutch fork broke loose from the throwout bearing, ones when the radiator split. Parts are quite expensive new, a radiator was $450, $775 for a windshield, etc. Used parts are mostly available easily, along with more suspension parts than you can get for most more popular cars. The clutch is only sold as an assembly (flywheel, pressure plate, throwout bearing, disc, pilot bearing) for $800, you can get a disc from clutchnet, but no other parts are avoidable seperatly. I put about $10k into mine, then sold it for $900 because I didn't have time to pull the transmission and fix the massive gear oil leak, and I was tired of not having a heater and i couldnt find the parts to fix it.

WhiteLX wrote: XR4Ti! You can swap out the T9 for a much stronger T5 relatively easily and cheap. The Mustang 4cyl T5 from the Fox Mustangs are plentiful in the junkyards.

Yeah, I have to agree. The car was built to be exactly what you describe. And the T5 is an easy upgrade.

I'd say a MkII Supra is darn close as well.

Truth be told, there is no alternative. You can't reproduce the heritage of the M3, and that is truly the reason to own one.

SupraWes wrote: E30 with M50 (non VANOS) swap

Unless you already own a 318, there is no good reason to go non vanos m50. M20 is way to similar to justify it.

BTW shameless plug, I'm parting out my built E30 M50tu car. Everything you need, plus a lot more http://sfbay.craigslist.org/nby/pts/2581786699.html

No I won't ship!

tuna55 wrote:

SlickDizzy wrote: Everybody really likes to forget that these were sold in the USA for 4 years. They are out there, most seem to be on the east coast/west coast with few in between, and you'd be hard pressed to pay more than $2000 for an immaculate example.

Tell me about this... interested.

Where might you find one of these? Especially in immaculate condition.

there's a K-car that comes to mind: the Dodge Spirit R/T was designed with the M3 as a benchmark.

Among k-cars, an 89 Shelby CSX comes a LOT LOT LOT closer to being analogous to an e30 M3. And, honestly, id be curious to know how much difference there would be between 2 stock ones around a track. You can get a fairly nice one for $5k with factory recaros and everything. :)

Believe it or not, NADA lists the 89 csx and m3 in nearly the exact same price range, with the 89 CSX being a little HIGHER valued on the high end ($17k+!). Their value has been going up so it will be hard to lose money on a nice one.

The 87 and 88 CSX's are not quite in the same performance ballpark but could easily be modded up to it for the $5k total.

In reply to z31maniac:

Simple: Smog regulations in the Socialist Replublik of Kalifornia. They do not take kindly to cars from out of state that do not have CA emissions systems.

If I could find a Milano Verde in the right price range, I would be all over that.

Geekspeed wrote: In reply to z31maniac: Simple: Smog regulations in the Socialist Replublik of Kalifornia. They do not take kindly to cars from out of state that do not have CA emissions systems. If I could find a Milano Verde in the right price range, I would be all over that.

actually, they don't have a problem with 49 state cars as long as all of the factory emissions equipment is intact and it has more than 7500 miles. Of course it does still have to pass the same emissions test as all of the rest of the cars in California.

The Volvo 240T will do it. A $1K car plus $4K in upgrades will be fast and handle great. It will not feel as delicate or refined as an M3, but you can beat on it like there's no tomorrow and it will keep coming back for more.

Whenever someone is serious about an XR4Ti, I like to link these pics, for your price you could easily buy a good runner and turn it into:

Joshua wrote:

tuna55 wrote:

SlickDizzy wrote: Everybody really likes to forget that these were sold in the USA for 4 years. They are out there, most seem to be on the east coast/west coast with few in between, and you'd be hard pressed to pay more than $2000 for an immaculate example.

Tell me about this... interested.

Where might you find one of these? Especially in immaculate condition.

They are out there. There are at least 2 for sale in the USA at any given time. The hard part about finding them is that there is no real network or community, so you have to turn a few stones.

The Mi16 is well known in the UK and the rest of Europe because of its touring car prowess. The Mi16 engine is still used in turbo form in Peugeot's WRC cars. They are revvers, very buzzy, kind of like a French ITR. The heads flow EXTRAORDINARILY well and it is relatively easy to hit 100hp/ltr with cams/intake/exhaust/ECU remap. (Here's a great article dissecting the Mi16 engine. It is awesome.)

Unlike most front-drivers, the engine is canted backwards in the engine bay for better balance - they handle wonderfully, but timing belts are a PITA! Parts are not hard to get as Peugeot is a huge company and these were sold the exact same way everywhere else in the world, plus there are still a few Peugeot-dedicated parts houses in the US.

If you can't tell, I have been stalking these for years, I just happen to have my hands full with the restoration of a grey market BMW E28 otherwise I would own the silver one...

US buyer's guide via European Car mag

Here is a fairly nice one on craigslist in AZ for $850.

This one just sold in Nashville for $1750.

This nice example in Vermont went for $1800.

nononono... I do not need a french car.... nope.. not listening....

What SCCA Stock class is the Peugeot in?

SlickDizzy wrote:

Joshua wrote:

tuna55 wrote:

SlickDizzy wrote: Everybody really likes to forget that these were sold in the USA for 4 years. They are out there, most seem to be on the east coast/west coast with few in between, and you'd be hard pressed to pay more than $2000 for an immaculate example.

Tell me about this... interested.

Where might you find one of these? Especially in immaculate condition.

They are out there. There are at least 2 for sale in the USA at any given time. The hard part about finding them is that there is no real network or community, so you have to turn a few stones. The Mi16 is well known in the UK and the rest of Europe because of its touring car prowess. The Mi16 engine is still used in turbo form in Peugeot's WRC cars. They are revvers, very buzzy, kind of like a French ITR. The heads flow EXTRAORDINARILY well and it is relatively easy to hit 100hp/ltr with cams/intake/exhaust/ECU remap. (Here's a great article dissecting the Mi16 engine. It is awesome.) Unlike most front-drivers, the engine is canted backwards in the engine bay for better balance - they handle wonderfully, but timing belts are a PITA! Parts are not hard to get as Peugeot is a huge company and these were sold the exact same way everywhere else in the world, plus there are still a few Peugeot-dedicated parts houses in the US. If you can't tell, I have been stalking these for years, I just happen to have my hands full with the restoration of a grey market BMW E28 otherwise I would own the silver one... US buyer's guide via European Car mag Here is a fairly nice one on craigslist in AZ for $850. This one just sold in Nashville for $1750. This nice example in Vermont went for $1800.

So how would these compare to an Alfa Romeo Milano Verde or GTV6?

I don't know a thing about any three of these cars. Are they RWD or FWD?

High cost to maintain or low? (In comparison to a Miata)

Joshua wrote: So how would these compare to an Alfa Romeo Milano Verde or GTV6? I don't know a thing about any three of these cars. Are they RWD or FWD? High cost to maintain or low? (In comparison to a Miata)

The Peugeot is FWD, the Alfas are RWD. The Peugeot would be cheaper to run than an Alfa simply due to parts cost, and as far as maintenance neither will be that bad if you find a decent example; you will have to do the timing belt more frequently on an Alfa than a Peugeot though. The Alfa is definitely "weirder" with the rear mounted transaxle and unique rear suspension, whereas the Peugeot is basically built like an Integra. The Peugeot will be more of a high rev screamer whereas the Alfa will have more down low grunt. Both are exotic Euro sport sedans from marques no longer available here, so to compare either to a Miata is like comparing apples to ribeye steak. The 405 is actually very comparable to the FWD Alfa 155, which we never got here, but they had some famed touring car battles back in the day.