Thoughts on Our Future With Self-Driving Cars

In reply to Bobzilla:

Tbh, Her drive sounds like an Awesome Excuse to get her a new Miata!

chada75 wrote: In reply to Bobzilla: Tbh, Her drive sounds like an Awesome Excuse to get her a new Miata!

2 reasons that won't work: She doesn't like 2 door coupes/convertibles and the drive is all highway straight roads. Also, we're in Indiana. A convertible is about as useful as a second belly button.

EDIT: But her Rio does have H&R's on it.

FlightService wrote: In reply to 4cylndrfury & jstand: You quip and jeer but on this forum, we tend NOT to bend to the norm in internet behaviors. Just seems really odd on the topic of self-driving cars gets us to the "normal" turn of events.

I agree, on many topics the members of this forum maintain civility do not relegate themselves to the typical bashing and personal attacks seen on the internet.

I mean, how often can you find a mixture of enthusiasts with such diverse tastes that have the sense of camaraderie that isn't restricted to a brand, style, or other criteria.

But there are some topics that are polarizing enough to watch the discussion slowly (sometimes quickly) devolve into the typical internet shouting match.

Normally those seem to be topics that lean towards politics and particular finance discussions (i.e. the economy and investing).

Occasionally the poor behavior can be found in automotive related topics such as towing capacities and the occasional "What pickup truck" which turns into a debate about whether or not a truck is really needed, but that poor behavior is the exception and most automotive topics remain above the fray regardless of the actual intent of the discussion.

Self driving car topics lead to unusual behavior from the typical well behaved membership on here, with the opinions and rationales leading into other tangents that seem to raise the level of conflict even higher and more personal and the page numbers increase.

One thought on this subject that hasn't been posed yet. Will the autonomous vehicle give the would be driver more time to be productive, or more time to argue on the internets?
Please be nice to each other on this forum. If the urge to bicker overwhelms you, take the time to go work on your car before the robot overlords take that job too.

I like driving, no way will I give that up to some robot dork thing. Probably I'll be drooling and wearing Depends in the old foks home by the time that happens, but if I'm fortunate enough to be around and still able to drive, I will. Absolutely no way I would buy a robot car. I'm glad I'm in the last quarter of life and not the first one, things are not better and not going to get better anytime soon.

I recently spent three days in the Fairfax/DC area.

Lots of traffic and I mean LOTS. All flowed well and no jams. Never saw an accident.

I had lots of time to observe as I was riding in a tour bus.

Maybe some of those drivers would welcome an autonomous car. Not me. I look at driving as sort of a game.

Wait, arguing on the internets is not a productive use of time?

I need a gif of Fonzie jumping a shark, STAT!

iceracer wrote: I recently spent three days in the Fairfax/DC area. Lots of traffic and I mean LOTS. All flowed well and no jams.

This is not possible.

On the topic of traffic jams, the answer is simple. People need to freaking move out of the city. It is insane to drive in Los Angeles in super-retard traffic, all the while knowing that just 50 miles --> thatta way is an empty desert with prime, cheap, real estate. As noted, most jobs can be done from home. So why live in the concrete jungle? (Keep in mind, I've lived in the corn fields of Illinois and in the middle of the city of Portland, Orygun.)

Trackmouse wrote: On the topic of traffic jams, the answer is simple. People need to freaking move out of the city.

Most people in the city don't want/need car much, and certainly don't use it to commute. People who drive into the city are the source of major traffic jams.

Also, I'd love to see some stats on what % of jobs could actually be done from home. I can picture mine being from home maybe 2 days a week... with massive software upgrades at work, and a direct fiber connection from my house to the servers at the office. And a lot of people have jobs that are way more hands on than mine.

None of the jobs I've ever had could be done from home. I certainly don't believe most jobs could be done from home. Some of them sure. No where near most.

Back in the driving thing. I love driving. I always have. Doesn't matter the situation, driving is my favorite thing in the world to do. I hate riding. I'm​ not a good passenger. Whether a human or A.I. is piloting me I will always be a very reluctant passenger. I will never willingly give up driving under any circumstances.

Bobzilla wrote:

Ian F wrote: In reply to Bobzilla: Yes and no. Personally, as much as I love driving, commuting is beginning to wear on me as I age. There is a part of me that on some days wouldn't mind walking out of my house or the office, getting into my car and just saying "home" or "work" and then taking a nap until I arrive.

Move closer. LOL Wife and I have had this discussion. She drives 75 miles a day. But the pay is ridiculously good and she knows it. It's the sacrifice we make. She uses the time to decompress before she gets home. It's something I used to do as well. Use that time in the car to focus on driving, or keeping smooth, or missing every pot hole.... something along those lines. By spending that 30-40 minutes doing that, the other things you were focused on and worrying about slip away. IT's great.

Move closer? I look at housing prices (and TAXES) near either office and wonder what kind of money do people have to make in order to buy a $500K home??? Because it sure ain't gonna happen on my salary.

Trackmouse wrote: I notice poor Mr. Wallens is staying out of this poop storm. Good on you sir.

I have a mental image of Margie walking over to his desk and smacking him on the back of the head, "Why did you start that???"

Before I respond to this, I would like to say that I am in general against the argument of "If you don't like driving, move where you don't need a car." It isn't that simple for everyone/anyone.

Ian F wrote: Move closer? I look at housing prices (and TAXES) near either office and wonder what kind of money do people have to make in order to buy a $500K home??? Because it sure ain't gonna happen on my salary.

That said, I find it hard to find a scenario where a commute longer than 10 or 15 miles would be acceptable. I find my own 9 mile commute ridiculous.

Driving an extra 10 miles each way to the office at a cost overall of $0.25/mile translates into approx $100 extra/month. At current rates, that will buy you $20,000 more mortgage. Of course, there is a tax deduction for mortgages as well so that $100 is really more like $130 which is good for more like $28k.

$0.25/mile is fairly conservative for most people (probably closer to avg. here on GRM). If you drive something that does not get good mileage, or anything remotely new that will depreciate, its probably more like $0.35/mile, which makes those numbers ~140 and 180, and mortgage numbers more like 30 and 38k respectively.

I understand in most megaopolises, the rate of home value climbs faster than that, but also in those heavily populated areas, your extra $$/mortgage is buying you an asset that will appreciate more than your current home and not depreciate like your commuting appliance will. IMO, once you add it up, living in the boonies and commuting is never as much of a savings at it appears to be at first.

And yes, obviously there are plenty of other reasons to liver further from work.

Ian F wrote: Move closer? I look at housing prices (and TAXES) near either office and wonder what kind of money do people have to make in order to buy a $500K home??? Because it sure ain't gonna happen on my salary.

People take jobs in the city, where competition for labor and higher cost of living yields higher salaries, then they buy more house with that money out in the burbs. Boom...traffic.

Considering the average term of a job between job changes is now only 3 years, I find the "Move closer" argument ridiculous, perhaps even insulting.

I know the average member of this forum is in a career position, but that is now the great exception nationwide.

Before you all get your panties bunched realize I used the ol' LOL to denote it was a joke.

As for cost per mile, the last car the wife had cost us $.03 per mile to own and operate. I've been through the math enough before. I'm sure it's in here somewhere.

Wife has considered moving to a school closer to home. Her problem is she'd lose ~$30k per year. That's pretty huge cut to drop her drive from 75 miles a day to 25. Although starting in August that does now drop to 60 a day as They are moving her to a new school. And it's only 180 contract days she has to drive compared to the normal 250 for the rest of us slobs.

Nobody makes people switch jobs every 3 years. Nobody makes people live where they live, or drive what they drive. We're all free to make our own choices that (hopefully) result in the lives we want. Having the freedom to choose is elemental to our way of life. It's no different when behind the wheel. I'm not going to begrudge anyone for the choices that they make, even if I don't understand them. But, personally, I'm unwilling to sacrifice any more freedoms than we already have.

ProDarwin wrote: I am in general against the argument of "If you don't like driving, move where you don't need a car." It isn't that simple for everyone/anyone.

I think it is that simple, if you plan for it. Many people do not think past the end of their nose. If you PLAN to not drive a car, you must PLAN to live in a situation where not having one makes sense. You cant have all your wants, all the time. If you dont WANT to drive, but WANT a big yard, and also WANT to work in the city, and WANT to do all of that with the salary you get doing the job you WANT, then youll either need to PLAN to attend med school so you can become a world renowned neonatal neurosurgeon, or youll need to compromise somewhere. But, if you MUST drive because your life circumstances dictate it (you live far away from the office because you bought the big house with a big yard, but its far from the city because thats where your salary could afford that much house...all the outcomes of your choices, your PLAN), you must actively engage in that drive. I understand that you may not WANT to, but too bad. Your PLAN got you here, suck it up and deal with the outcomes of your choices.

In reply to ProDarwin:

Giving mortgage differences is not relevant for me as my house is paid for and I'll be damned if I will get another one. Having been essentially debt-free for the past 3 years, it would be very difficult to sign for a loan again. It's why I continue to drive old, high-mileage cars. I simply can't stomach the idea of spending $500/mo (or whatever) on a car loan again.

And again - you are not looking at the difference in taxes. If I were to move to a house closer to either office (never mind the IT AIN'T BERKING HAPPENING option of moving to NJ), my property taxes would more than double. Yeah... so I get some percentage of that back. Big effin deal. I'm still paying a butt-load of money for little benefit and completely blows your cost savings equation out of the water.

While I live in a suburb of Philly, I don't work in Philly. I just work in different suburbs.

So I agree the comment of move closer to be condescendingly insulting.

In reply to Ian F:

No condescension or insult intended in the move-closer argument. its all about accepting the outcome of your choices. If you dont want to live close, plan to drive - theres no way around it. If you must drive, plan to drive well - be engaged, pay attention, be courteous, respect proper road etiquette. I can certainly understand that you dont want a mortgage, I completely respect your choice, and even applaud it. Freedom from debt is a great achievement, you should be proud! But, since you choose to live far from work, and you choose to work for an employer who dictates you commute to the office, and you choose to not take out a loan to purchase a home closer to work, then you must accept that one outcome of those choices is to drive a car. You say theres little benefit in moving closer...thats what you perceive. One benefit of living close is that mass-transit is an option. If you dont want to drive a car, then its a HUGE benefit actually. Location, Occupation, Transportation - pick two.

4cylndrfury wrote: then you must accept that one outcome of those choices is to drive a car.

...or let an autonomous car drive you to work.

ProDarwin wrote:

4cylndrfury wrote: then you must accept that one outcome of those choices is to drive a car.

...or let an autonomous car drive you to work.

One option fits smoothly into the current norms of American society. The other requires radical change to a vast majority of that same society. Its enacting a solution to a problem, which in turn, creates even more problems.

Im all about making things better - evolution is necessary in order to achieve advancement. But lets make a better driver. Much easier, more effective, and less liberty infringing than making a better enormous-juggernaut-of-the-social-construct that is commuting in a car.

In reply to 4cylndrfury:

No. It IS condescending. I would love to live closer to the PA office. I'd be closer to a number of my friends as well. The benefits would be numerous. I flatly can't afford it and the maybe $200/mo difference in commuting costs would barely make a dent.

Hell - the difference in taxes alone would be many times more than that, much less the difference in housing costs.

So, I know a lot of folks in this thread would rather not buy an autonomous car. That's fine by me, I'd rather not buy an SUV. Easy peasy. The real question I am interested in is does anyone have a real problem with someone else buying an autonomous car?

No one is forcing anyone to use a smartphone. Or a bank. Or hell, even a toilet that flushes itself. So what's the problem here (all of those things have become ubiquitous because of their usefulness, just like most people see autonomous cars)?

There are also likely thousands of other benefits (and some problems) that will come from autonomous cars that we have no way of predicting. I am also personally excited to see all the economic, health, technology, etc benefits and growth that we will experience. What OTHER things could become a possibility or reality with autonomous cars?

In reply to Robbie:

I have zero problem with it, so long as it doesn't negatively effect my ability to drive myself. But long term, I don't see that happening. I'd imagine that insuring non-autonomous vehicles will become more expensive over time as it will be seen as a higher risk activity. If most of them are electric, as seems to be the expectation, then gas stations will likely be less ubiquitous and therefore harder to find fuel for the traditional vehicle. Those are the only things that concern me about the prospect of autonomous vehicles becoming common place.

I'm not negatively affected if somebody wants the latest smart phone. But I do think there's a pretty strong likelihood that autonomous vehicles will make it more expensive and more of a hassle to own and operate my own non-autonomous vehicle.