Tow vehicle: how much is enough, and is newer better than bigger?

Buy a 2wd v10 excursion for cheap cheap. Reliable and can tow and safely store anything. They're also really cheap. 

Like this

Also, the 5.3 and 6.0 Suburban/Tahoe/Yukon 1500/2500 SUV's can be had for 5k or less as well. 

6.0 yukon 

These SUV's can be bought for pretty cheap. That'll leave room for your daily driver. Im assuming space isn't an issue if you have a trailer laying around. 

On a personal note. I prefer to have more than needed for towing. Ive been towing with my 2wd 7.3 excursion through the southwest with my 20ft open trailer. Smallest car I've towed was a nb miata, largest s600 mercedes. Truck handled them with no problem. Im glad I had went overkill though, towing the s600 from socal to central texas up and down steep, windy, and windey grades could've been some E36 M3 in a lesser vehicle.

Nate90LX said:

In reply to Knurled. :

Was that 4.0L Ranger a stick shift?

Yes.  Technically a B4000, 4wd extended cab.

4 Low was awesome for maneuvering the trailer around in parking lots.  I am Austin Powers when it comes to backing a trailer into a spot.

For $10-15k, I'd look at "big" midsize SUVs or BOF full-size SUVs. I went down this road with my first tow vehicle and ended up with a 2005 Yukon Denali.

Midsize - WK/WK2 Grand Cherokee, Pathfinder (2008ish), 4Runner, TrailBlazer quintuplets (Chevrolet, GMC, Buick, Saab, Olds all sold a GMT360). It is hard to find Explorers with the right sized hitch and I had no desire to swap the hitch.

Full-size - Sequoia, Armada, Expedition, Navigator, Tahoe, Yukon

The full-size SUVs are all shorter 1/2-ton pickups and will tow what you want very well. The midsizers will also do it, although you'll notice the trailer behind you more. In both cases, you will need a trailer brake controller unless you rent UHaul trailers with surge brakes. Tekonsha Prodigy P3 is the go-to TBC and works very well.

I'm heavily biased against GM and would probably look to the Jeeps or Pathfinders for a midsize, or Sequoia/Armada if you go bigger. The Ford products in your budget will all have the 5.4L Triton V8 which is fine but not stellar, and the GMs were rustbuckets even in non-rust-belt parts of the country. I've had friends tow open trailers with Miatas/Civics/E30s on them, using everything in the "midsize" list up there, and all say it's entirely fine, if a bit slow on hills.

Other thing to keep in mind is your overall payload will be less on the midsize SUVs. So, that may limit how many sets of wheels/tires and tools you bring.

Bigger is always better. I love my suburban 2500, it's a dinosaur killer but I have a Honda fit  for dd. Excursions are also nice. Manual trucks suck to drive for towing after the fun wears off. 

I'll share my experiences over the last 3 years towing a 15' boat on a trailer that weighs maybe 2k wet and loaded. No trailer brakes.

1996 F250 powerstroke, extended cab, long bed auto. 23x,000 miles, 4500lbs, 144" wheelbase, rated for 10k towing. Towed the boat fine in OD at 65 but easily kicked out of OD at the slightest rise. Got about 13mpg towing. Brakes were freshly rebuilt and still terrifying. Slid the truck through a traffic light with the boat behind it.

1997 Jeep Grand Cherokee, V8, 4x4, 3800lbs and rated to tow 7500lbs. Wheelbase around 100"? The jeep worked hard to maintain 65-70 with the boat but would do it out of OD. Loud and big rpms to get the job done, 9mpg. Stability was good but not as good as the 250 although the ride was better. Brakes were better than the 250 but not great. Pulled up steep hills at low speed better than the 250.

2013 Ecoboost F150 crew cab short bed. 6500lbs, rated to tow 9750lbs I think. 145" wheelbase. Boat? What boat? Knocks down 13mpg with the cruise set at 70. Quiet, composed, blissful. Brakes stop the same as without the trailer. 

I think newer trumps size for the most part. If nothing else the braking systems are that much better. I know the 7.3 strokes are supposed to be gods own tow pig, but I couldn't imagine towing heavy loads with it. 

^1996 F-250, extended cab long bed 4500 lbs.?

you got the acid dipped version?

Trailer brakes are important.  I've never towed without them.  Never worried about stopping properly.

I towed with a Dodge 2500, open trailer with my E36 M3 on it.  Acted like it wasn't even there.

Towed with my Cayenne Turbo, rated at 7700lbs.  You could certainly tell it was there but the SUV with ~525hp still boogied with the trailer.  Stable ride, handled fine, sucked down fuel like you wouldn't believe.

Towed with my '08 Lexus GX470 aka V8 4Runner.  Rated at 6500lbs I think?  Much worse to tow with compared to the cayenne.  Nowhere near as stable, handled like crap, really bad mpg's.  I wouldn't tow with it again unless it was an emergency.

Granted I live in Denver, with real mtn's and altitude but still, wouldn't use the GX/4Runner to tow with. 

A 401 CJ said:

^1996 F-250, extended cab long bed 4500 lbs.?

you got the acid dipped version?

Ehh...yeah, okay my memory isn't the best. I guess it was heavier than that. Looks like book weight would have been about the same as the new truck, 6500-6700. That makes the difference even more surprising.

I've never actually scaled anything but my Mustang.

You know how Miata is always the answer?  Suburban is the SUV version of that.  

“I need to tow xxxx:  Suburban”

“I need to haul the kids and the dog and groceries:  Suburban”.  

“ I need to get through 12” of snow to get to the ski lodge with the kids, groceries and dog:  Suburban”.  

Apparently nearly everyone who has owned a ‘burb will always own one.  Even if just as a backup vehicle.  I’m on my second one. 

Thanks for everyone’s input. I think I will be leaning toward the F250 manual trans, and then I can DD something more fun. Other than a few of you, It sounds like most people don’t like manual trans trucks in general. I like manuals even in stop and go traffic ( although my left leg gets tired).  Thinking through the possible failure modes with a manual trans, what if something happens (clutch failure?) and I can’t get the truck in gear at highway speeds. Could I stop it once with only the brakes from 60 MPH? This might be irrational since this has never happened on any other manual car of mine. 

In reply to ultraclyde :

I don't know about the OBS trucks but I know the 99+ 7.3 have great brakes. I had a semi lockup in front of me @60 something mph going down hill on interstate 8. With my 2k lb trailer with 5.2k worth of car on it, my truck stopped wonderfully. I had a similar situation in the rain towing a 4k lb car, that was scary. Trailer brakes are useful lol.

Reminds me, my excursion needs front brakes. 

I'm a fan of big truck manuals as long as its a truck with a boring powerband. I like the manuals that came with 7.3s. I don't like the manuals that came with hemis in 3/4 ton dodges. The transmissions are probably equally good but the powerband of the hemi is sporting enough to make you annoyed at how un-sporting the trans is. The 7.3 powerband is boring enough that it doesnt matter at all! 

no manual trans F250 or F350's at our gov surplus sale site, but if you feel like heading North...and those are CDN dollars, so 30% cheaper for US$

https://www.gcsurplus.ca/mn-eng.cfm?snc=wfsav&sc=enc-bid&scn=325633&lcn=473310&lct=L&srchtype=&lci=&str=21&ltnf=1&frmsr=1&sf=ferm-clos

Personally, I'd be concerned with how often vs weight. If you think you'll tow often, go overkill.

I went with a friend of mine a few years ago to drive his car at Raceway at the Midlands. On the way home, the wind was so strong, something like a previous gen 4Runner, even with the V8, we would have had to just pull off and stop. 

His F250 with a 24' enclosed trailer and Miata..................we were being passed by semi's on the highway..........with the foot to the floor. 

What about the Nissan Titan? They all have the 5.6L with a decent trans (although automatic only).  Plus they are cheaper than any other 1/2 tons with similar miles and a V8.

I had highly considered this Titan on GRM. 

In retrospect, I probably should have done it. 

2008+ got better front brakes which this owner had upgraded to. 

Radiators are a concerns because they have a built in trans cooler. The common failure is that rust causes internal failure to the system and the fluids comingle.  The trans then runs on water (coolant) and the result can be trans failure. 

Proactive radiator replacement seems to be the answer. 

Titans with the optional tow package are rated at 9,600 pounds.  Im not sure what the rating is w/o but I'm sure it is at least 7,000 pounds.    The presence of the tow package can be distinguished visually by the presence of the larger towing mirrors (like the GRM Titan had above.)  

Just my 2 cents worth here..... Towing comfort, wheelbase is king. Sure, that short wheelbase cherokee CAN tow. But is it comfortable? Are you ok towing for 2k miles with it or are you wore out after 500? Now, that doesn't mean you need a crewcab dually to tow comfortably. Any of the modern (say, 15 year old or newer) 1/2 ton pickups can do it all effortlessly. 

I've said it hundreds of times but I love our GMT800 Sierra Crew cab super short bed. It's got room for 6, an open bed for the nasty stuff and tows 5k lbs all day long effortlessly. 

Knurled. said:

Nate90LX said:

In reply to Knurled. :

Was that 4.0L Ranger a stick shift?

Yes.  Technically a B4000, 4wd extended cab.

 

4 Low was awesome for maneuvering the trailer around in parking lots.  I am Austin Powers when it comes to backing a trailer into a spot.

Yup, 94 B4000, 4.0L, M5OD manual, 4x4, 3.73 gears.

Automatic rangers from a bit later trucks say tow capacity is 5000 or more.  I think mine says 3500 because of 4x4 and manual, but I wouldn't hesitate to try 5000 with it.  I wouldn't make it a long road trip with it, but for short trips I think it would be fine.  The 3500-lb boat gets about 500 miles at a time back and forth to the lake, and aside from a few mountains in PA that reveal the 160hp shortcoming, it does fantastically

Nate90LX said:

  Thinking through the possible failure modes with a manual trans, what if something happens (clutch failure?) and I can’t get the truck in gear at highway speeds. Could I stop it once with only the brakes from 60 MPH? This might be irrational since this has never happened on any other manual car of mine. 

This is one of the reasons I prefer manuals.  Your trailer should have brakes.  If it doesn't, add them.  I'll talk more in a minute about the type of brakes.

So you're on the highway and realize you've lost the hydraulics for the clutch and you can't disengage it.  Stop the vehicle normally while gently tugging on the shifter, or just match the throttle with the drag so that you can slip it out of gear.  Pull over and get a tow.  Replace clutch hydraulics.  Or you could do what I do and just keep going and match revs to shift.  You can go a long way if you don't stop.  In fact, in low range, I can start from a dead stop without the clutch.  Just hold the shifter against 1st and the drag on the synchros will move the truck enough to match speed and it drops in 1st.  Then match for other gears.  You're of course limited to 35 mph or so, but at least you're moving.

So you're on the highway and the opposite happens; you fry a clutch.  Baby it to the next exit.

But if you're on the highway and you fry an automatic, just pull over and open up the biggest wallet you have.

re: braking... I will use a little engine braking when towing, but it only provides a small fraction of actual stopping torque.  I downshift for downhill to use engine braking just so I'm not constantly cycling the brakes, but that is mostly laziness.  90% of your stopping power is from the brakes anyway.  Another reason I like a manual for towing is that I select the ratio.  Depending on how an automatic is tuned and the algorithms of the computer, some autos are just stupid.  The 4L60E in mom's old S10 Blazer was awful.  Even not towing, if you set the cruise on 65 and encounter a hill, it would start applying more throttle but wouldn't downshift until it needed to drop all the way to second.  Going up a hill with cruise was a constant violent cycle between OD and 2nd.   Many newer autos are pretty gentle during shifts with reduced timing/fuel, but I used to get frustrated with my Powerstroke's automatic that it would shift when it wanted to while I wasn't expecting it... at WOT with 10k behind me.  I started to learn it's patterns and backed off the pedal and physically shifted the lever before getting back on the fuel.

Trailer brakes are important.  Electric brakes are pretty cheap and very effective.  They are also tunable for the load.  They do have the drawback of being sometimes abused by the rattling of the trailer.  Wires break or come loose, the pigtail gets corroded and doesn't carry the juice, etc.  Still, with a little upkeep they are bulletproof.  There are two basic types of surge brakes; functional and emergency.  Both operate by putting the coupler on a sliding mechanism with a master cylinder on the tongue that feeds brake fluid to the brakes.  A good surge brake system is a joy to tow.  Its simple; the weight of the trailer pushes on the master cylinder and applies proportional braking.  Main drawback is that if you're backing uphill, you need to put a pin in the slide to prevent activating the brakes.  The emergency type is the same setup, but engineered to only engage in a panic stop or close to it.  To me, they're junk.  They end up rusting after a year and the one time you really need them, they aren't there.

Just chiming in to give a +1 on the GMT800 5.3 or 6.0. I got mine for $2300 and it tows fine (that is until the 4L60E goes, but hey, I got it for $2300).

I'm a cheapskate when it comes to tow vehicles. I considered a lot of things like bigger SUVs because they are often cheaper than trucks but the lack of utility (open bed) is a turn off. Plus a lot of them have severe rust issues (Expeditions and Suburbans).

I really wanted a Super Duty but here in the rust belt they are all garbage. The bed cross sills rot out and by the time most people notice it's taken the floor with it. Plus the bed wheel arches are always bad. Good luck finding a replacement bed; they don't exist. Add in the spark plug and exhaust manifold problems of the Triton engines and I just can't see spending the money they want.

I am a die-hard stick shift guy but I gotta say...my current slushomatic F150 is a delight to this aging codger. While I don't like the can't-fix-it-myself nature of an autobox they seem to be a lot more reliable than in years past.

Nate90LX said:

In reply to John Welsh :

Your Govt mule post is part of why I want a Super Duty. 

Today I went to  the auction inspection and looked at the Dakota Quad Cab.  It is nice enough that I will bid on it up to $2k and expect that I can sell it, unfixed for $3,500.  It may have a $5k value if fixed.  If someone doesn't mind a tailgate that rubs when it closes and sits a little cock-eyed.  The tailgate does still latch.  There is and will remain a dent/bend/wrinkle in the right bed panel over the wheel.  

Downside is that it has no reciever hitch and even with it is max rated for 4,800 pounds.  An upside is that it has no hitch and seems to never have towed anything.

On the drive home from there, I passed a local used car lot and I'll be damned, the is a Gov't Mule on the lot.  A genuine retired ODOT truck.  Unlike my Ford, this is a GMC.  I circled back to look.  

My take is that the lot did not get it from ODOT but rather it has been in someone else's hands for a while.  I gathered this opinion for the side window vent things (that I hate) were mot gov't issue but are cracked and abused.  The rust has been painted over.  The steering wheel has been "wrapped" with electrical tape (but its okay.)  The driver's bucket has been black duct taped.  It would be easy to replace this with the seat from another GM including Yukon/Suburban.  The passenger seat has likely rarely been sat in.  Buckets., not bench.  

Disappointment when I opened the hood to find it is a 4.3L.  The internet tells me a tow rating of 5,200.

I drove it.  It drove well.  The power steering seemed a little slow.  Common on GMs at start up.  On my short 20 degree drive this did not seem to improve.  I was told new front shocks (which I could see the shinny tops bolts), new front wheel bearings and brakes.  Also stated new brake lines.  Tires are exceptional.  Generally drove down the road good.  

I did notice that the AC compressor is missing.  It was also missing from my Ford.  I think ODOT takes them for spare parts before letting the trucks go.  

The window said $3k.  The salesman was quick to offer $2,500 out the door without me even asking.  That's like $2.3k.  

2001 GMC 2wd with 4.3L V6 and 159k miles.

Yes, the yellow light works.

Photo dump:

In reply to Nate90LX :

It really depends on you.  What is your skill, comfort level? How much space do you have to store things? 

I’ve done it all, pulled a tandem axle enclosed trailer with a little S10 and pulled an empty open single axle trailer with a 2 ton truck. Plus everything in between. Yes I’ve driven Semi’s and big enclosed trucks. Pulled a trailers with cars, small trucks and big trucks. 

Remarkably I’ve never had an accident and the few incidents were easily dealt with.  I blew a trailer tire at 105 mph adjacent to the Bonneville Salt flats. 

Snapped a trailer axle losing the whole wheel assembly  in the Smokey mountains. 

But a lot of people are terrified of the trailering experience.  If that is you, then follow your instincts and do what makes you feel confidant.  

However going bigger really doesn’t actually give you a better experience.  Learn how to balance your load. Make sure you aren’t tail heavy  because that will make the trailer whip and sway.  

Check the trailer alignment. It’s fast, simple, and free to do. All you need is string and a tape measure. Something to hold the strings is helpful. I’ve used cement blocks, jack stands, friends, twigs stuck in the ground, 

Ask how if interested. 

I agree with Bob that tow pig wheelbase is a big factor in how well a vehicle works in that role.  I've towed open car haulers with my '03 Dodge Ram CTD 6 speed manual and my '14 Jeep Grand Cherokee ecodiesel.  The Ram handled the task well and I came to enjoy the stick shift in the beast.  I bought it because Chrysler automatic transmissions were trouble spots.  The Jeep, while having a 7700 lb tow rating made me feel uneasy when towing.  The handling was a bit spooky and it made me very uncomfortable.  The ecodiesel pulled up to speed easily enough on the MI flatlands but the long-term quality issues I experienced had me send it down the road a short time ago. 

I have yet to hook up my '17 Yukon Denali to a car trailer but expect to soon.  I'm enamored with the truck so far and hope my first GM experience since my 1996 Lumina company car is a good one.    

I’m seeing a few Xterra manuals available, some even around $5k, which has me reconsidering them. Does a weight distribution hitch help with sway and tongue weight enough to offset the short wheelbase.

Thanks for everyone’s responses. This is a good discussion on the tow vehicle topic. I am not decided yet. Although I’m not a big fan of GM or Chrysler vehicles.