Track car: Another "help me decide" thread, but please give it a glance!

Alright whats up good people of GRM! I've been a lurker here for awhile, and finally decided to join.

So here is the situation. I currently drive a 1988 Honda CRX Si. The thing has been an absolute peach, and with 160,000 miles on the odo, she really hasn't given me any problems. I daily drive the car, but have taken it to the track for some fun a few times now. I did a wintercross and a few other events.

Anyway, the time is coming to sell the car. Its getting old, and I am looking for something new, preferably not FWD.

I am looking at a 2001 Honda S2000. Its grandpa-owned, has 40k miles on it, and been very well maintained. From the pictures the car looks brand new. He is asking $13,000 flat, which I think is a great price for being west coast. Anyway, I could pick this car up as a daily driver, and still take it out to the track on occasion. I know tracking your daily is never recommended, but I don't do anything too competitive, its mostly just turning laps and comparing times with friends.

Now the other option was to buy a complete junker car and fix it up to be a toy. Ideally I would like to use the car to be easily setup for track events, drift events, and rallycross events. I know there are vast setup differences between these but, like I said, I am just doing this for fun and not worrying about being too competitive for now. So for now I could get by with different tires and maybe a welded diff and an open diff. Adjustable suspension would also give me some versatility, I imagine.

So yes, the Miata seemed like one of the easiest, most accessible, and most versatile offerings out there as far as cheap goes. I also considered an FC RX7, but rotary scares me. I was also looking into a cheap 3 series BMW, from the E36 gen. Maybe a 325i or one of the 4 cylinder hatchbacks. Seems like it could give me the same versatility as the Miata, but maybe parts would be more spendy.

I have also considered some of Lexus' RWD offerings. It seems like you can pick up some models for cheap now, with lots of miles. Should be easy enough to work on, most of them anyway.

On the same note as the S2000 idea, I had considered a Nissan 350Z. I know you could prep it for track and drift easy enough, but I would not rallycross the Z or the S2000. Lots of people say the Zs are over-rated though. Why not a 300ZX? Everybody tells me they are no fun to work on, and the idea of having 2 turbos that could fail makes the idea even less appealing.

Anyway, thats kinda where I'm at right now. Voice your oppinions, and hopefully I can make a choice and be happy with it!

Welcome, Desmond.

An S2000 with tires and alignment is a whole lot of car right out of the box, less likely to break, and you can just drive it home. No worries.

They improved the suspension in 2002.

CRX is paid for. Now is the time to take it to the next level as dedicated track/rallycross car.

Buy newer car as daily driver, S2000 would be nice. I expect that car will have a loan on it; maybe 3 years.
Once loan is paid, turn the S2000 into track car, In the meantime you have been competing with the CRX.

CRX from daily to track once daily driving S2000.
S2000 from daily to track once S2000 is paid; buy another to daily.

only thing to really consider about the S2000 being your track car … the old saying … don't take a car to the track that you can't walk away from ….

IMO, you don't want any car that is really nice as a track car. They get chipped, dinged, stuffed into gravel traps or bounced across the curbing/grass etc... sometimes smashed badly. Nothing you will ever do on a race course will make your car any better looking.

Find a mechanically sound car with hail damage, or some other defect that makes it less expensive and use the difference on track wheels/tires.

Buy the S2000 for DD for occasional trackday and/or autocross. And:

Buy a beater 6cyl e30. e30s are pretty widely used for autocross, drift, and rallycross and can do all three fairly well without major modifications other than maybe changing your springs and tires. We have a few local guys that do all three in the same e30s. A multi-use e30 won't win any of those events (except maybe rallycross), but it will be reasonably good at all of them. And parts for all three things are very cheap with a large aftermarket.

I'd also be concerned with roll-over protection in the S2000.

most track day event folk, won't let a convertible on track with out "real" roll bar

still tiptop is usually a bit more protection

I HEAR the S2000 actually has some of the better factory roll protection as far as convertibles go. I know our local track doesn't let you run most convertibles without a cage, but they allow the S2000.

Also, the E30 is an awesome suggestion. I had indeed considered this car, but I thought most of them were 4 cyl. Which model has the 6 cyl? I will look into it!

Oh and I had also considered a foxbody. I know, they are mostly junk, but they come with that beautiful 5.0 which has ridiculous aftermarket support, and a guy here locally makes this "angle mod" for them that gives you a pretty awesome steering radius, so its not such a boat. But I hear the chassis suck on these cars...

I am thinking I will probably buy the S though. It may be my only chance in awhile. I only wish it was at least a 20002! Seems like alot changed from 01 to 02. Im fine with it not being an AP2 tho...

Anyway, thanks for the suggestions so far!

Desmond wrote: I HEAR the S2000 actually has some of the better factory roll protection as far as convertibles go. I know our local track doesn't let you run most convertibles without a cage, but they allow the S2000.

If you're helmeted head is above the "roll hoop" and remember the actual hoop is lower than the plastic cover, it won't matter how good it is, because your head will still hit first.

But as always, it's up to you to determine what level of risk you deem acceptable.

JohnRW1621 wrote: CRX is paid for. Now is the time to take it to the next level as dedicated track/rallycross car. Buy newer car as daily driver, S2000 would be nice. I expect that car will have a loan on it; maybe 3 years. Once loan is paid, turn the S2000 into track car, In the meantime you have been competing with the CRX. CRX from daily to track once daily driving S2000. S2000 from daily to track once S2000 is paid; buy another to daily.

This. He speaks the wisdom.

Desmond wrote: Also, the E30 is an awesome suggestion. I had indeed considered this car, but I thought most of them were 4 cyl. Which model has the 6 cyl? I will look into it!

Most E30s were 6-cylinder. (I.E.) 325i and 325e. The I models have a 2.5l m20b25 which makes around 160 HP and 160 lb/ft of torque. The E or eta models have a 2.7l m20b27 which makes 120 hp and 170 lb/ft of torque, but have a very diesel like powerband and only rev to a little over 5,000. You can swap the 885 head and components from a 325i to a 325e, and have a "stroker" motor. The 1991 318i also would be a good candidate due to its light weight, and revvy m42 4-cylinder. There is tons of information out there regarding engine swaps on E30s.

My vote would go to buying a new DD, and turning your CRX into a dedicated track car.

The S2k sounds nice, so I'd go with that for a reliable DD/ weekend warrior. In that price range you could also probably find a nice C5 Corvette, which is just as awesome but for different reasons and it would still fit the bill.

For el grande cheapo beater/ dedicated track car:
79-04 Mustang- Stiffen the chassis, replace the stock crossmember with the Maximum motorsports one and replace the 4 link with the Cobra IRS or a 3 link and they handle great. Lighter than the F-body, great engines and great drivetrains. More expensive to get power out of the 96-04's due to it being SOHC.
Late 3rd gen Camaro/ Firebird- same as Mustang but with glorious 3 link rear vs. bind-y 4 link. Get one with the 305 and 5 speed, since you can't get the 350 with the manual from the factory and it's easier to swap engines than trannies. Wheel spacers and a Monte Carlo SS steering box will get you all the angle you'll need. Power is as easy as opening a Summit racing catalog, and there are always large displacement SBC's and LS engines that swap in fairly easily. Sam Strano is the man to know for setting the chassis up.
LT1/LS1 Camaro/ Firebird- same as third gen but more power, SLA front, stiffer chassis, glorious T-56. Again, easy to get power out of and Strano can help you get the right suspension parts and set it up to handle.
FRRAX.com is the go-to site for making F-bodies turn.

Miata- obvious
240SX- slow but millions of engine choices and huge aftermarket to get ridiculous steering angle and good coilover selection.
Corolla GT-S- Same as 240- huge aftermarket. Coupes are stronger and cheaper. If a 20v 4age or built 16v isn't enough for you, you can swap in an s13 crossmember and run a variety of Nissan engines.
MR2- The mk1b supercharged and mk2 turbo are great out of the box. Sticky tires and some suspension work are all they need. Difficult to drift, but you'll get more respect and be a better driver if you can learn on one. MR2oc.com is your friend.

Buy the S2k and GPS's E36 track car.....then you have a nice DD and a car that would be competitive in club racing?

@z31maniac: You are right. I am a taller guy too, so that is definitely a valid concern.

@JohnRW1621/MattB/nokincy: Not a bad idea, except there are three main reasons I don't want to turn the CRX into a track car.

First, its FWD. I know how potent FWD can be, but I've been driving it all my life, and really long for the RWD experience.

Second, its actually in very good condition, and I have practically all service records since it left the factory on hand. This means I can actually score a decent dollar or two for it. Oh and its bone stock too! Yeah, you dont find bone-stock CRXs. Not even an aftermarket intake!

Third, I dont fit in the car! With a helmet on, I am literally crammed in there, and sometimes I open the sunroof and kinda stick the top of the helmet out cuz it helps. I'm like 6'1".

I do really like the idea of the E30 tho. They are cool little cars for sure, and they have a good history behind them. I'm sure there is plenty of info out there on them.

@Jmackk: Those are some great suggestions too! I have looked into the 'Vettes, but there arent alot of them for sale around here. Great cars tho! The old Cameros are pretty cheap too, and I always heard they drove like oil barges, but it sounds like people have had success with suspension mods and stuff.

I am really tempted on this S2000 tho. I know of Honda's reliability, and it would be such a fun DD.

240SX is also a good suggestion, but pretty much all of them around here have been converted into "drift missles", junker 'franken-cars' where you will pretty much always be buying someone else's problems.

EDIT: sorry about formatting issues :P

Text looks good

I race an E30 (for sale!), but would recommend you get a E36 M3. You can buy these for similar dollars to a nice E30 (they have become 'collectible') and are much faster while still retaining most of the E30 razor reflexes. The later 3 series BMWs don't do it for me; they got soft, vague and fat.

The S2000 is autocross-able but track days you'll probably be denied unless you add a roll bar. They also need to be driven with respect; this one got wiped out within a month of purchase because VTEC kicked in, y0!

ddavidv wrote: I race an E30 (for sale!), but would recommend you get a E36 M3. You can buy these for similar dollars to a nice E30 (they have become 'collectible') and are much faster while still retaining most of the E30 razor reflexes. The later 3 series BMWs don't do it for me; they got soft, vague and fat. The S2000 is autocross-able but track days you'll probably be denied unless you add a roll bar. They also need to be driven with respect; this one got wiped out within a month of purchase because VTEC kicked in, y0!

Aha, yes that was another idea I was considering! Buy an E36 M3 and use it as a daily/track-rat. Seems like another very versatile car, except there are a few finnicky "Germanisms" with the car, where they recommend welding where the shock tower meets the chassis, and the oil crank bolt, and a few other things that I dont remember right now. Seems like a bit of extra work to really prep the car properly, but I do have friends that weld, so it shouldnt be too much of an issue.

One of my fears with the S2000 is actually the whole VTEC thing. Seems like it would just be a pain to constantly keep it in the sweet spot, and it also seems that the back end could kick out on you unexpectedly if you began to accelerate out of a corner and VTEC kicks in when you dont expect it.

I've never had a car with VTEC, but I think I've heard some similar horror stories. Ideally, I will one day put a small turbo on the S that spins really fast, giving me bottom end grunt, and fizzling out at high RPMs, where VTEC will take over. That's in a perfect world though, a nice even powerband. I imagine it would be a few headaches of tuning, but probably doable.

Are my anxietys justified about VTEC? Is it really not that bad afterall? Seems more a hinderance on track than an advantage...

jmackk wrote: The S2k sounds nice, so I'd go with that for a reliable DD/ weekend warrior. In that price range you could also probably find a nice C5 Corvette, which is just as awesome but for different reasons and it would still fit the bill. For el grande cheapo beater/ dedicated track car: 79-04 Mustang- Stiffen the chassis, replace the stock crossmember with the Maximum motorsports one and replace the 4 link with the Cobra IRS or a 3 link and they handle great. Lighter than the F-body, great engines and great drivetrains. More expensive to get power out of the 96-04's due to it being SOHC. Late 3rd gen Camaro/ Firebird- same as Mustang but with glorious 3 link rear vs. bind-y 4 link. Get one with the 305 and 5 speed, since you can't get the 350 with the manual from the factory and it's easier to swap engines than trannies. Wheel spacers and a Monte Carlo SS steering box will get you all the angle you'll need. Power is as easy as opening a Summit racing catalog, and there are always large displacement SBC's and LS engines that swap in fairly easily. Sam Strano is the man to know for setting the chassis up. LT1/LS1 Camaro/ Firebird- same as third gen but more power, SLA front, stiffer chassis, glorious T-56. Again, easy to get power out of and Strano can help you get the right suspension parts and set it up to handle. FRRAX.com is the go-to site for making F-bodies turn. Miata- obvious 240SX- slow but millions of engine choices and huge aftermarket to get ridiculous steering angle and good coilover selection. Corolla GT-S- Same as 240- huge aftermarket. Coupes are stronger and cheaper. If a 20v 4age or built 16v isn't enough for you, you can swap in an s13 crossmember and run a variety of Nissan engines. MR2- The mk1b supercharged and mk2 turbo are great out of the box. Sticky tires and some suspension work are all they need. Difficult to drift, but you'll get more respect and be a better driver if you can learn on one. MR2oc.com is your friend.

The only problem with V8 cars is the exponentially higher cost or running vs something like a Miata.

They will eat tires/brakes/fuel at a much higher rate and the consumables will also be more expensive.

I don't think the S2000 has enough torque for VTEC to get you out of sorts on track-out. Certainly nothing like any turbo car would be subject to.

The S2000 is a great option for a track car. Add roll bar, seat and harnesses and suspension and you are good to go. The price isn't objectionable and it is ridiculously reliable - especially compared to a used up e36 or e30.

At 6' 1", you can fit in a gutted, caged Miata with a race seat bolted to the floor but it can be tight for people that don't like to be crammed into small cars. You'd fit fine in a FC or RX8 though but, if you don't like rotaries, then a BMW or maybe even a Boxster or 944 may be options for you. The Z ain't bad also but it's a bit heavy. Heavy = more fuel, tire and brakes expenses.

I have an '03 S2000 and love it. Have not had it on track yet. A good condition, low mileage example for $13k is a steal. I have not had mine on track yet, and plan to use my 944 as my dedicated track car. Just driving it around the street though, I can tell you an AP1 S2000 is not a novice car.

No, it does not have massive power or turbo lag to suddenly get you in trouble if you are over-exuberant, but the rear suspension is very lively and needs to be driven properly. The suspension change happened with the AP2, which is '04+. When you commit to a line, you need to keep your foot in. If you are reasonably experienced, it is perfectly easy to deal with. You just need to be aware of and respect it. If you can, it will make an excellent track car with little work.

That said, I am a big proponent of dedicated track car. I would say E36 M3 for that duty, or echo the suggestion of converting the CRX and using the S2000 for DD, auto-x and drift.

^Isn't the toe kit an easy retrofit for the earlier cars?

CRX is begging to turn into a track rat.

Yeah BeerBaron, I'm well aware of the AP1 suspension thing. Something about how the suspension geometry changes the toe angle as it travels or something. I hear once it steps out on you it can be tricky to catch too, because the engine sits so far back in the car. Not as easy as say a 240sx or something. I don't mind it, but it seems like more hassle to deal with. Some people claim you can actually be faster with the AP1 suspension over an AP2's new configuration, but thats just one more arguement amidst the millions in the AP1 v AP2 debate.

I hear rear bump kits can mitigate the twitchiness quite a bit. Anybody have experience with this? I could probably get used to it pretty easily, I understand how unbalancing the car suddenly can make it spin, and that means lifting off at high RPMs in the S, but I guess thats how alot of faster cars behave anyways.

If I did make the CRX a project car, I would definitely swap in a B18, maybe even the one from the Type R. Probably keep it NA. It DOES have some rust in the wheel wells though, and that may indicate a rusting chassis. I need to get under there and have a good look.

Anyway, thanks for all your help so far. It may seem like I am brushing ideas aside, but I really am taking everything you guys suggest into consideration. Thanks again!