I've done 7 + track days and want to learn more about what what I'm doing right and wrong .What's my next move? Video advice-youtube?, more books about how to ? driving coach $$$$ ? Track class ? My vehicle , ready ? 2001 tacoma .
I've done 7 + track days and want to learn more about what what I'm doing right and wrong .What's my next move? Video advice-youtube?, more books about how to ? driving coach $$$$ ? Track class ? My vehicle , ready ? 2001 tacoma .
Coaching, either video or in person.
If your organization has instructors for novices, as one of the instructors to ride along with you. Ask to ride with an instructor in their car. If you want to learn even faster, let an instructor drive your truck while you ride along.
Also, GoPros are cheap. You should be reviewing your in-car footage.
[joke] take up drugs, its cheaper [/joke]
being serious, another option to consider; get a simulator... I found that all of the tracks that I frequent are available for downloads for Assetto Corsa and i was also able to find a car similar to mine...
A. Simulators are fun
B. you will be able to practice late braking and maximizing corner entry speed to the point of skating the car, etc.
100% on a sim. You need a descent force feedback wheel and ideally load cell pedals. Then you need to play the right games, no gran turismo or forza. However it accelerated my learning curve a ton. Plus if you have an off season you can keep sharp. You also get to learn of lot of skills you can't really do safely at a track, like when the car gets out of shape and onto grass, how to keep it out of a wall. You'll have the right muscle memory for when it happens IRL.
theruleslawyer said:100% on a sim. You need a descent force feedback wheel and ideally load cell pedals. Then you need to play the right games, no gran turismo or forza. However it accelerated my learning curve a ton. Plus if you have an off season you can keep sharp. You also get to learn of lot of skills you can't really do safely at a track, like when the car gets out of shape and onto grass, how to keep it out of a wall. You'll have the right muscle memory for when it happens IRL.
what are the benefits of load cell pedals? When I got mine last year I got the thrustmaster but didn't opt for the load cell pedals... they offer those as an option what benefit do they have? I.E. should I consider an upgrade?
ClearWaterMS said:theruleslawyer said:100% on a sim. You need a descent force feedback wheel and ideally load cell pedals. Then you need to play the right games, no gran turismo or forza. However it accelerated my learning curve a ton. Plus if you have an off season you can keep sharp. You also get to learn of lot of skills you can't really do safely at a track, like when the car gets out of shape and onto grass, how to keep it out of a wall. You'll have the right muscle memory for when it happens IRL.
what are the benefits of load cell pedals? When I got mine last year I got the thrustmaster but didn't opt for the load cell pedals... they offer those as an option what benefit do they have? I.E. should I consider an upgrade?
Load cell pedals base braking on pressure just like a real brake pedal. Cheaper pedals base it on angle, which isn't as useful for training feel for transfer to a real car and tends to be less consistent. Most folks say load cells are one of the bigger upgrades for the thrustmaster and logitech kits. I have the thrustmaster t-lcm pedal which are pretty inexpensive. They work best if you replace some of the brake springs with cheap elastomer donuts to improve the feel. You don't really need to go nuts on $1000 brake pedals. Anything with a load cell will be an improvement. Its more how much adjustability is built in and bling.
Video and coaching. A GoPro is fine, set it up so your hands are in the field of view. Log your lap times with a phone app like Harry's or TrackAddicts.
More seat time with experienced drivers, video, simulations and visualization. Lot of options.
I get nothing out of simulators (even the good one I have) except learning new tracks, it is great for that. I haven't turned mine on in two years as a result.
I get a ton of valuable insight from in car driver coaching and then data review afterwards.
In car instruction is good for the very early stages of driver development, but it quickly gets to the point where it's too fast and too noisy to provide any feedback. Also, instructors quickly start to fear for their personal safety and refuse to ride right seat. :)
Video coaching is the next step, hybridizing into data coaching (often with data overlays onto video). Expect to spend $800-1000 per day on a personal coach, it's a specialized skill and there aren't a ton of people who can do it well. Sometimes you can split it with someone else.
Books are a good theoretical background, but personally I find it very hard to translate that into things I can actually do on-track. Once I strap into the car and the adrenalin starts flowing all of the carefully memorized "I'll do this here, and this there" stuff goes poof and I fall back on instinct. Online video coaching is similar -- there's too big a time disconnect between the analysis and the next driving session for it to help me much.
IME the absolute best way to do coaching is to combine video/data review with in-car radio. My coach stands somewhere he can see most of the track with the notes from the last data review session and provides timely voice-in-my-ear reminders of what we'd discussed right before I get to the corner in which I need to do it. This is really productive.
I find simulations very hard to drive because I've spent too much time in real cars and too much of my experience is based upon non-visual cues.
Nothing is going to beat real-time, in-car coaching for effectiveness, and at 7 track days you are likely at the level where most 'club' instructors can still provide valuable feedback.
As Codrus noted, as your skill level increases past intermediate levels, it gets more difficult (and expensive) to find a really effective instructor.
A race school (as opposed to a trackday) would be a great place to start if you can find one in your area. Some schools can be very expensive, but some marque clubs put on schools that are very reasonable and well organized. Check what's available in your region. It's absolutely worth it to spend a long weekend traveling a few hundred miles to a nearby school.
Sims...
Sims are great, but not for everyone. The two biggest improvements in my sim experience (after a good wheel) were a load cell brake pedal and triple monitors. The load cell pedal took it from arcade, to a much more realistic brake modulation. The triple monitors make it so you actually turn your head to look into corners, which made it much more immersive. All this costs money, but not a huge amount in the big pictures. My three monitors were ~$600.... about 1/2 a set of tires, and I've already gotten a LOT more track miles out of the monitors than one set of tires will give.
Sims are great for learning new tracks, but also allow you to experiment with lines, braking points/technique and racecraft without danger to yourself or anyone else. And without spending anything on track fees, tires or gas. Though you're still missing the physical feedback of a real car, there's a lot to be gained from a sim, and it's pretty easy to budget 20-30 minutes on the sim a few times a week.
And we have an Assetto Corsa race league right here on GRM... 
As someone who instructs I will chime in:
First get someone to ride along with you to go through the fundamentals. At 7 events you are likely still working those out.
Without seeing any video I will tell you the thing I try to get new drivers started on is learning to steer with the pedals i.e. throttle steering and trail braking. Most new drivers have a tendency use the steering wheel to make mid corner corrections rather than the brake or throttle. Once you turn into the corner the steering should be set.
When to brake is as simple this; if you are still threshold braking when you should be transitioning to trail braking, which typically happens as you turn in, then you’ve left it to late.
As for when to let off the brakes; if you over rotate the car you’ve left the brakes on to long. If you let off the brakes and the car drifts wide of the apex you’ve come off the brakes to early. You basically zero in on it like Goldylocks; not to hard not to soft.
If you've move past all of the above you could share videos here (people do that from time to time). There are quite a few of us who are willing to give feedback.
Sonic said:I get nothing out of simulators (even the good one I have) except learning new tracks, it is great for that. I haven't turned mine on in two years as a result.
I get a ton of valuable insight from in car driver coaching and then data review afterwards.
100% this. Some people get more from a sim than others. I'm with Sonic in that they are almost useless for me. As a full time instructor/coach I can tell you that nothing can replace right seat instruction, combined with video and data review if you can get it.
What is your expectation, timetable to get there and budget? Seven days in with a pickup as the vehicle I wonder what your goal is.
You mention 7 track days, what group were they with? From my experience track day groups, range from 1:1 student / instructor ratio with very educational programs (with impressive guest speakers) to here is the track, here are a few flags, don't hurt anyone. 7 days with some track day groups would have included some good instruction, others not so much.
On the topic of sims, choice of display device matters a lot. Personally I seem to use depth perception a lot to judge speed -- combine this with the fact that I mostly don't use memorized brake markers (but instead just sort of gauge how fast I'm going relative to where the corner is) and I'm completely useless at braking in a sim that's using a flat screen monitor, either single or triple. A VR headset (I have a Valve Index) fixes that, though.
...which just brings me to the next non-visual cue, the sensation of incipient oversteer. It seems that the first indication of oversteer that I pick up is my inner ear detecting the yaw, which of course doesn't work with a sim either. So while I can actually accomplish a lap without crashing due to completely blowing a brake zone, if I try to pick up the pace I wind up spinning the car in ways I never would in real life. Supposedly this can be addressed by adding a "butt kicker" subwoofer to the sim rig, but I haven't gotten around to trying it yet.
I know several people for whom sims have worked great, but they all started on sims and then went to real cars. Going the other way is harder.
porschenut said:What is your expectation, timetable to get there and budget? Seven days in with a pickup as the vehicle I wonder what your goal is.
This.
I would get a car as step #1. Any car really.
codrus (Forum Supporter) said:I know several people for whom sims have worked great, but they all started on sims and then went to real cars. Going the other way is harder.
I think there is the expectation that they'll be on the same level when they start. When they suck in sim because they are missing cues, a lot of them just give up. Forget how many hours they spent to get good IRL
I instruct a lot with SKJSS, and agree with what he's saying.
What clubs and what area are you in? Have you been signed off to the solo group yet?
Even if you you've been signed off to intermediate, you can always ask the chief instructor to find someone to ride along and give you some tips.
In my opinion, this is where the catalyst really excels. As a mostly-novice, you're probably not going to be very consistent, that means the catalyst will have lots of options to guide you towards a better line. Really work on trying to be consistent, and you'll be able to make the adjustments recommended by the catalyst or instructor.
In reply to DWNSHFT :
Go pro sounds like I need one !
In reply to ClearWaterMS :
I'm 99.9 % sure I won't get a simulator ,Never been a gamer or have even played video games -I would rather hop in my truck and go for an hour drive
In reply to theruleslawyer :
What do those sims cost for a good one? with load pedals? not that I'm getting one just curious.
In reply to ShinnyGroove (Forum Supporter) :
Video coaching ,that is a great idea and I do need to get some thing to log my laps ,maybe on of those dash mounted computers ,I'll have to see what is out there and how it rates
In reply to chknhwk :
Seat time would be the best but the most$$$
In reply to codrus (Forum Supporter) :
IME ? not sure what that is . Your right about trying to remember what the coach said ,it's like giving a boxer instructions /ear buds while he is in the ring .Also my truck has a cage , 2 fixed cobra race seats , 5 point harness and about 175 whp , for now . 250 HP + motor on the bench so I can get in trouble quicker .
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