I've never been that interested in a track-only car because of a limited buget. However, an aquaintance has hinted that he might be willing to part with a 1980s formula car in exchange for a couple of favors. My experience however is that most track day events are specifically limited to closed-wheel vehicles, so I'm concerned about having a nice toy with few places outside of autocrosses to play with it. Any thoughts?
A friend bought a weird little open-wheeler. Prototype for some class that never took off, from what I understand. The biggest thing I remember is an oddball Fiat wheel bolt pattern.
He eventually sold it because he had no real chance to play with it. He could race with SCCA and NASA but there was almost no participation by other cars that he could race against. It was replaced by a Spec RX7.
Envelope body over formula chassis. Example--S2000 cars are basically FC underneath.
In reply to Keith: My concern exactly. A Formula Atlantic car should be amazing fun, but...
ST_ZX2 wrote: Envelope body over formula chassis. Example--S2000 cars are basically FC underneath.
Good idea. Would the addition of cycle fenders be another alternative? I don't like the extra unsprung weight and aerodynamic issues, but...
What kind of formula car is it? What you describe is the classic problem with oddball open wheelers. Some tracks allow open wheel cars to run with sedans, but I don't think it is a good idea and, in any case, it is no fun for the open wheel driver.
I think the most practical formula car is a club ford, because you can run with most vintage clubs and with SCCA., so there are usually lots of opportunities to race with like cars. They're also bullet proof (mildly tuned Kent motor) and relatively inexpensive to run.
-chris r.
If my friend had a car that lived in a class with more participation, he'd probably still be driving it. Look to see what other people in your area are running, and join the herd.
kreb wrote:ST_ZX2 wrote: Envelope body over formula chassis. Example--S2000 cars are basically FC underneath.Good idea. Would the addition of cycle fenders be another alternative? I don't like the extra unsprung weight and aerodynamic issues, but...
Adding cycle fenders may not be enough to disguise the car for what it is - an open-wheel racer.
There have been independent suppliers who offered envelope bodies for converting formula cars to run legally in CSR/DSR. I don't have any leads, but you might try searching for some sports-racer specific boards to post some inquiries.
Oh, ST_ZX2, S2000 cars are not converted F-cars.
No cheap way to run an Atlantic - suspension and engine both have to be refreshed every couple hundred miles.
An old ChampCar costs less to run than you think:
www.lolachampcar.com
and a really old one might take a Chevy V8...
chaparral wrote: No cheap way to run an Atlantic - suspension and engine both have to be refreshed every couple hundred miles. An old ChampCar costs less to run than you think: www.lolachampcar.com and a really old one might take a Chevy V8...
Weren't the Atlantics running a hopped up version of a common Toyota or Ford engine? When the race motor wears out, you throw on a turbo'd version of the street motor. Right?
Check out the DSR forum and apexspeed. They know all of this stuff!
kreb wrote:chaparral wrote: No cheap way to run an Atlantic - suspension and engine both have to be refreshed every couple hundred miles. An old ChampCar costs less to run than you think: www.lolachampcar.com and a really old one might take a Chevy V8...Weren't the Atlantics running a hopped up version of a common Toyota or Ford engine? When the race motor wears out, you throw on a turbo'd version of the street motor. Right?
Originally the FA's used Ford-Cosworth BDA's. Toyota provided a tarted-up 4AGE. The most recent iteration of the series used the Mazda-Cosworth MZR.
Don't believe turbo'd motors were ever used in the class. Not that they wouldn't work, just that there's no road racing class for them.
This thread is relevant to my interests for 2 reasons...
Firstly, it'd be awesome to come across an opportunity like that. Great score!
Secondly, and mainly, I'm working with a guy (have been for 3+ years now) who is building tube frame open wheel race cars aimed at this crowd. I'll be the southwest distributor for the US. Anyway, if there's a major problem with them being open wheel (with minor fenders) then we have a problem. If it's just a matter of participation, I think that'll be solved soon.
Sorry for hijacking your thread... Carry on.
Yet another potential member of Formula Kludge.
I would talk to the local track-day organizers as many of the track-days I've run have separate classes based on speed and/or skill.
Also, DPCars has run their cars on several track days here and they have cycle fenders or sportsracer style bodies.
The main key for the organizer is safety. If they think you'll be unsafe or that it would be unsafe for others, then you won't run. I think finding our their concerns and mitigating them will go along ways to opening the events up to you.
oldsaw wrote: Oh, ST_ZX2, S2000 cars are not converted F-cars.
Early ones were...now they are indeed purpose-built. Point is that there have been sports racers that can easily trace their roots back to a formula car.
I've had an open-wheeler dive under me in a braking zone and he was invisible in my mirrors because he was so low. It's just luck I didn't turn down into him. After that experience I would never mix formula cars with tin tops. Honestly, same thing goes for prototypes. I had an LMP2 car dive under me that I couldn't see (at night).
David
SCCA routinely mixed SR's with Prod cars in the Novice programs.
I took the Targa car out with a bunch of Formula Fords one time. I was worried about being a mobile chicane. After a few laps, I had to pull in because I was afraid I was about to run one over. I had the same acceleration and cornering they did, but I had much better brakes. However, they had no functioning mirrors judging by the way they were driving...
Keith wrote: I took the Targa car out with a bunch of Formula Fords one time. I was worried about being a mobile chicane. After a few laps, I had to pull in because I was afraid I was about to run one over. I had the same acceleration and cornering they did, but I had much better brakes. However, they had no functioning mirrors judging by the way they were driving...
that is awesome
Hey Keith,
Don't know if you will see this, but I was curious about your last post. I was particularly surprised about your last comment regarding brakes. Very few cars can out brake a formula car. One of the most common comments from new formula car drivers is something along the lines of "I realized I was braking way to early and not hard enough given the car's capabilities."
Also, have you taken your Targa car to Pueblo or HPR? If so, I would be curious about lap times...
-chris r.
It very could very well have been a driver problem, but there was no question that I was outbraking the formula cars in that session. Brakes are something I spend a lot of time setting up properly, so mine usually work as well as possible for the platform. I know my Seven can outbrake the Miata.
The Targa car has been to both Pueblo and HPR. It was a four cylinder at Pueblo and either a four or a poorly-running V8 at HPR. I don't have lap times for either, I was using the track for handling balance primarily. Here's in-car from HPR from my first visit in the four-cylinder days, running on a set of three-year-old RA1s. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yusRI4FShWg
On one visit to Pueblo, I was running with my friend who had the open-wheeler. I was able to catch him, much to my excitement. Then I found out he was doing a no-brake exercise...
Okay, thanks for the reply. I asked, because I happen to know that there are some very talented ford drivers in Colorado
. Formula fords, at least vintage ones (the ones I'm most familiar with), usually use fairly primitive Triumph-based disc brake setups. However, this doesn't really reflect on their braking performance, because the cars are so light (not much over 1000lbs). When driven well, they can consistently brake considerably later than modern Porsches, for instance.
Also, the braking issue is one of the main reasons that it is not good to mix open wheel (formula) cars with sedans on a track. What typically happens, as alluded to in a previous post, is that the sedan driver will brake and get set for a turn and the formula car, using a much later braking point, will dive inside the sedan going into the turn. All too often, they both end up committed to the turn, trying to occupy the same space. Been there, done that, fortunately walked away; don't want to do it again...
-chris r.
The fact that this driver was ignoring the looming Miata that was all over him all the time would indicate that he wasn't one of the more experienced FF drivers out there. Either that or he had an ego problem. I had to pull in to avoid the growing temptation to give him a little of the chrome horn. Gave him most of a lap of breathing room, problem solved.
Understood. Unfortunately, ego problems are all too common in the amateur racing world, regardless of talent. Even more unfortunate is the fact that lack of talent/experience and ego problems often go hand in hand; which seems more to the point in your example...
-chris r.
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