As the title says, i was signed up for a tnia event at VIR in august, then saw this:
Any idea why VIR doesn't allow snell m-rated helmets when everyone else does? I keep my motorcycle helmet very current, but i havent done a track day in years, i'd prefer not to spend 3x the entry fee on an SA helmet that may just sit.
What sayeth the hive? I know we have a few scca/tnia/etc folks here. Thanks.
In reply to Flynlow :
Also, dammit, i meant to put snell m-rated in the title. Oh well, maybe it will drive eyeballs and outrage. That's how the internet works these days, right?
I've seen motorcycle helmets not allowed for years in various auto events. I'm more surprised that TNiA allows them.
Better or worse, AFAIK motorcycle helmets have different testing to get the Snell rating.
Does TNIA do rental helmets?
In reply to BlueInGreen - Jon :
They do not.
Thems the rules. Tracks will routinely have rules that exceed that of the organizer.
I do not believe that Snell M have Fire retardant materials like SA helmets do.
There are several ZAMP or Conquer brand SA2020 helmets for <$200.
I have a Conquer SA2015 Full Vented Hans compatible one that I have been very happy with. It.. is a helmet.. and fits well and seems to do helmet stuff. When the SA2025's come out I will replace it as it is about to age out.
For njmp it's a state law, not sure about vir but maybe similar? Or it might be some kind of insurance thing. Lots of groups, including some autocross organizations even, have stopped allowing m helmets.
I'm shocked M helmets were allowed at all to be honest. They haven't been legal for track days by me in over a decade. Also not legal for drag racing. Motorcycle helmets are designed different for a different use case. If you aren't on a motorcycle, don't wear one.
Yeah disallowing motorcycle helmets is the norm in my experience.
DasAuto said:I'm shocked M helmets were allowed at all to be honest. They haven't been legal for track days by me in over a decade. Also not legal for drag racing. Motorcycle helmets are designed different for a different use case. If you aren't on a motorcycle, don't wear one.
It's something i struggle with, as someone who previously worked in certification work (albeit not helmets, so i'm ignorant there).
I buy a top of the line shoei every 5 years for bikes. When someone says you can buy an SA rated helmet for $200, i wonder what sacrifices there are for fit and materials. I am admittedly ignorant on the test protocols, but would rather wear a $1200+ m-rated over the cheapest sa-rated available. Is the sa better for a substantial reason, or is the $$ m rated "better" but just never underwent certification?
No answers here, just frustration. I will likely buy an sa helmet for the event. In addition to track pads and fluid. The $$ hit keeps coming for a "casual" event.
Because M-rated helmets don't have the typical fire protective fabric on the inside like vehicle helmets do.
I know this will sound snarky, but I thought this was common knowledge.
https://www.fastracer.com/blogs/news/difference-between-an-auto-racing-helmet-vs-motorcycle-helmet
In reply to z31maniac :
TIL, thanks.
z31maniac said:Because M-rated helmets don't have the typical fire protective fabric on the inside like vehicle helmets do.
How useful is the fire protection in an SA-rated helmet if you're wearing jeans and a t-shirt like most HPDE drivers?
20 years ago pretty much everyone accepted M-rated helmets, but it's been gradually shifting away. Not sure why.
Flynlow said:In reply to Flynlow :
Also, dammit, i meant to put snell m-rated in the title. Oh well, maybe it will drive eyeballs and outrage. That's how the internet works these days, right?
I got you.
Flynlow said:It's something i struggle with, as someone who previously worked in certification work (albeit not helmets, so i'm ignorant there).
I buy a top of the line shoei every 5 years for bikes. When someone says you can buy an SA rated helmet for $200, i wonder what sacrifices there are for fit and materials. I am admittedly ignorant on the test protocols, but would rather wear a $1200+ m-rated over the cheapest sa-rated available. Is the sa better for a substantial reason, or is the $$ m rated "better" but just never underwent certification?
Ironically cheap helmets often provide better protection. This is primarily due to the thicker EPS lines used since cheap helmets have one shell size most of the time. You're paying for comfort, venting, graphics, features but generally not safety. When you look at cheap $200 SA helmets you also can get M helmets just over $100. That seems about the right premium for a fire retardant liner. The one thing I'd check for auto use is weight. Lighter helmets will give you less neck strain for the same cert. I've heard they're also rated for multiple impact vs single impact, but I've never seen anything official on that. I have a cheap no name carbon helmet just for the weight.
codrus (Forum Supporter) said:z31maniac said:Because M-rated helmets don't have the typical fire protective fabric on the inside like vehicle helmets do.
How useful is the fire protection in an SA-rated helmet if you're wearing jeans and a t-shirt like most HPDE drivers?
20 years ago pretty much everyone accepted M-rated helmets, but it's been gradually shifting away. Not sure why.
Probably meaningless, but that wasn't the question asked.
Even I still wore a Nomex balaclava under my helmet. Obviously, you don't want to get burned anywhere, but least of all the neck/face area.
Hell when I went and did the Exotic Racing thing in Vegas a few weeks, I was wearing sneakers, shorts, T-shirt, and open face helmet while driving cars faster on track than I have ever been. I think on my best lap in 488 Pista I was touching 130 mph down the front straight.
Try going to NJMP
codrus (Forum Supporter) said:z31maniac said:Because M-rated helmets don't have the typical fire protective fabric on the inside like vehicle helmets do.
How useful is the fire protection in an SA-rated helmet if you're wearing jeans and a t-shirt like most HPDE drivers?
20 years ago pretty much everyone accepted M-rated helmets, but it's been gradually shifting away. Not sure why.
The reason is money.
Racebrick said:codrus (Forum Supporter) said:z31maniac said:Because M-rated helmets don't have the typical fire protective fabric on the inside like vehicle helmets do.
How useful is the fire protection in an SA-rated helmet if you're wearing jeans and a t-shirt like most HPDE drivers?
20 years ago pretty much everyone accepted M-rated helmets, but it's been gradually shifting away. Not sure why.
The reason is money.
So the tracks around the country are in cahoots with helmet manufacturers to change the standards?
In reply to z31maniac :
I mean, everything that is halfway to do with racing is money, so i laughed :p.
Honestly, i wonder if its less cahoots (cahooting?) between tracks and helmet makers, but more "your insurance is $x cheaper if you only allow sa-helmets". Still money related. And rather than asking "why?" and applying some common sense like mr_asa did regarding the fire ratings, they just give in. Arbitrary insurance requirements will be the death of us all, eventually.
Flynlow said:Arbitrary insurance requirements will be the death of us all, eventually.
Arbitrary insurance requirements definitely seem plausible as a cause.
As far as balaclavas go, I agree, I wear one with my helmet all the time. Most people don't though, even in SCCA/NASA race car safety rules I think it's only required if you have facial hair,
z31maniac said:So the tracks around the country are in cahoots with helmet manufacturers to change the standards?
Sir around here we refer to them as "Big Helmet".
Big Helmet is to blame for being in with the small town tracks.
The previous track manager at NCM was adamant about NO M helmets. Even for the cheap winter events where neck donuts were acceptable HANS equivalents.
He explained its in part due to M helmets using Kevlar. Also M are rated for broad impact crashes experienced from a motorcycle(Road/Grass/Hood). Kevlar melts, and M is not great for impacts seen in car crashes.
SA uses nomex(or similar), it won't melt/burn on your face. Also is designed for more localized impacts seen in car crashes(bars/doors/structural).
When you think about it, it makes sense that an M, even if top of the line, wouldn't be designed to be safer in a car crash vs an SA. Prior to his explanation I was in the good helmet is helmet camp.
Fwiw, I bought a cheap Zamp full-face to try track days and have since used it a bunch for different stuff. A bit heavy maybe, but it my case it's been fine even over hr+ stints in a lemons race.
I don't think it's something that necessarily needs to be a big expense.
It's the simple fact that "motorcycle rated" does not mean "car rated". Applying lawyer logic means that a motorcycle helmet is not for a car, and a car helmet is not for a motorcycle. We all know that the Venn diagram of the two has far more overlap than not, but the technicality is there. Once the technicality is there, lateral thinking checks out of the building. We live in an age where you can not *assume* something is good enough just because it probably is but lacks the certification when something else does have the certification. As soon as someone gets an injury while wearing the "wrong" helmet, there's a lawsuit, even if the right helmet might not have made any meaningful difference.
It's not just helmets either. My daughter's kart suit is not eligible for quarter midgets because QM has a harness. Therefore, you need fire resistance even though they have the same engines and the suits both look the same. Hers might even be fire resistant enough to pass the test, but the manufacturer didn't submit it for testing.
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