Weight vs Driven Wheels for fun and car control

In reply to SKJSS (formerly Klayfish) :

Thanks! Yeah honestly the two that stick out to me the most are the fit and the e90 in different way. The e90 was by far the most comfortable, composed, and capable feeling with torque on demand and it felt predictable but insulating. Definitely would be the best road trip car. 

The fit just felt engaging. It just wanted me to feel things and do things. It wanted to rev, it told me so much info about the steering and the brakes. It was more engaging than the ek civic which really surprised me. 

I really want to drive a proper 8th gen si, not the E36 M3ty one I drove. Can't find one near me to test drive. 

Cars yet to drive: mazda2, g35, decent civic si. Might try a golf GTI because I really like the r32. The vag reliability seems tenuous but my sister has an i5 Jetta (mk5 golf years) that is basically the same platform and that was zippy and fun. Not as engaging as the fit, r32, or mini though. 

I wish I could get a combination of the feel of the fit, the cornering ability of the e90 (took corners way too fast for my comfort), and the fear factor of the r32. 

I feel like if the e90 were a bit less insulated, I'd like it. But in each of these cars I missed the responsive, connected feeling of the fit? How does it manage to have such a good and tight steering feel and responsive/ engaging pedal box? 

The other conclusion is that honestly I'd be happy in any of them. They had their difference and I have my preferences, but they were all really fun to drive and cool to boot. And I really liked different things about them all. 

Important note, I only drove the fit around a parking lot so I'd need to drive it on the street to see if I'd like it. I liked the feel and responsive nature of all the inputs, but it is the slowest here and I might feel the lack of power on a road

I found the perfect description for my e90 experience. I loved the way it responded to my inputs, but I wish it had more feedback. 

That engine though. It sounds so good

After sleeping on it, The test drives don't seem to have helped much. I took one car off the list, maybe two but I liked them all and would enjoy having any of them. They all had different things to offer. Hard decision lol

They all offer different things, you're right.  You won't find one car that offers absolutely everything.  From your feedback it sounds like you're looking for a "raw" driving experience.  That's what the NA Miata delivers perfectly.  If you can't get that, closest replica will be Mazda2 or Fit, or maybe Civic Si like I said.  Don't know why it didn't dawn on me but one other option is the '99 to '03 Mazda Protege, specifically the EX or P5 if you can find one.  I put 80,000 miles on one and it was one of the most fun 4 seaters I've ever owned.  They won't be expensive if you can find a good one, rust is the big issue 

Yeah I second that Protege idea. I nearly bought a P5. They are very raw, silly fun, and toss-able. Dreadfully slow too, ha. And will very hard to find now, especially in the rust belt! That's why I didn't even mention them. Rarer than exotics at this point.

If you do find one, make sure it has ABS. Some do, some don't, IIRC.

ABS is one technology that I wish I had when I was younger. I would have avoided at least two crashes if I had it. I don't buy cars without it now. 

In reply to SKJSS (formerly Klayfish) :

Yeah, I liked having the car talk to me rather than insulate me from the road. 

I am trying to find a decent 8th gen si to test drive, not the E36 M3ty one I drove. 

I had briefly considered a protege after coming across it in a caranddriver archive comparison test. When I looked near my they all were more iron oxide than steel. I'm going to look down south but they seem rarer than hens teeth. 

In reply to CyberEric :

I liked the raw feel. Like I said the e90 responded best to my inputs, but it didn't talk to me the way the fit did. It isolated me from the road. I liked the feedback where you just felt everything that the car was doing. 

I think abs is one of the few electronic nannies that isn't an intrusion on driving experience. You simply cannot beat ABS. Even pro drivers can't brake better than abs. 

https://houston.craigslist.org/cto/d/richmond-2002-mazda-protege-hatchback/7714121007.html

Oddly enough a really clean yellow P5 drove past my house this morning. My level of disbelief and excitement was so many levels higher than seeing a Lambo or McLaren.

In reply to clutchsmoke :

I like proteges, seems they were pretty beat on and really rare. Surprised they aren't more valuable in a market that prizes good, analog driving dynamics. 

In reply to SKJSS (formerly Klayfish) :

Thanks!! That's really really clean.

I've narrowed down my list to the

fit

mazda2

protege

celica GTS

8th gen SI

How would you rank/compare them? From reading, they seem to all offer sharp handling, analog experience, and tossability. The GT-S has a great engine, protege is bigger with more power than the little guys, and the little guys are very go-kart esque. 

In reply to Evanuel9 :

I had a Protege 2.0 ES and they are a lot of fun.

I used mine a couple of times when we were doing instructor trainings and it was quite fun on track.

One word of caution: if you use it for track days do not fit it with ultra sticky tires, they are fine with regular tires but once you fit race rubber they have oiling issues.

In reply to Tom1200 :

Thanks!! Yeah it seems like most cars have oiling issues with proper sticky tires. Good thing I probably can;t afford another set of race rubber.

Have you driven any of these others? Any thoughts on how they stack up?

I would rank them:

Celica GTS - The only car with real sporting intentions in the group, best powertrain of the bunch IMO, and has the most modding potential.

Fit/Mazda2 - Fun agile hatchbacks, the Fit's powertrain stands out too.

Protege - Fairly lightweight sedan with decent handling.

I don't see any Toyobarus on the list, did you finally get that insurance quote?

In reply to GameboyRMH :

So the toyobarus are on the list but only sort of. I didn't put them on that list because that list is cars that are definite options. The toyobarus is still tentative because the on that I found for 5900 isn't answering me, and the others I'm unsure of. They stretch my finances to the limit and I'm worried that I'd be bending myself over financially and risking ruin. I have 9500 until next winter (working over the winter) and if I spend 7500-8000 on the car that leaves me almost nothing for gas, tires, maintenance, parts, or any other life/costs. So I really really really want one, but I'm not certain if I'd be making a bad mistake.

In terms of insurance, dad is still dragging his feet. Getting a concrete answer on anything from anyone in this family is like pulling teeth lol. I doubt he's checked yet, but the approval of this car is also bound up on whether they'd let me get a a car from out of state which again, they're still dragging their feet on. 

Thanks for the ranking! I like the celica as it's the only sports car. What stands out abvout the fit powertrain?

In reply to Evanuel9 :

I've driven the Fit and Civic. The Celica GTSs I've driven are the 80s versions.

The Fit is the car I said I would drive if I could only have one car to do everthing. It gets smoking gas mileage and you can put a ton of stuff in it........all while being fun to drive.

In reply to Evanuel9 :

What stands out about the Fit powertrain is that it feels and sounds like it revs higher than it really does, the Mazda2 and Protege have more ordinary-feeling engines. But the Celica's 2ZZ is the real deal and can rev to over 8krpm in stock form.

Based on what you said you want, my ranking would be

P5 - it's the most raw of the group.  More power than the Fit and Mazda2.  Handling is more sporty in that it will have less body roll.  If you can't find a P5, the EX will give you the same experience.  Most Miata like of the group.

Fit/Mazda2 - agile, fun, reliable (P5 is too).  Great choice.  It's below the P5 for me because it's a little less raw and they are so ridiculously slooooow.  Highway cruising is not fun. 

Celica - best "sports car" of the group.  Also the least raw, they are pretty refined.  The last generation Prelude fits this bill too. 

Personally I would go Celica or Prelude first, but I'm totally good with the more refined feel. 

I've driven a Fit (auto), a 2, a Protege and a first gen Mazda 3 almost within a month of work ne another. Of note, I found the Fits forward visibility atrocious in city driving. The front a-pillar is awkward and split, so it makes seeing pedestrians a chore. Just wanted to mention since it sounds like you live in an urban environment. I didn't buy one for that reason (I lived in San Francisco at the time) and the fact it was automatic, which really made it a dud. Also, they were and are incredibly expensive compared to the competition. 

Between the Fit and 2: The 2 has a slightly better chassis in my opinion, but the Fit has a slightly better engine. 
 

Protege is more raw than them both. It didn't feel any faster in a straight line than the 2 to me. It's heavier and doesn't have that much power. The subsequent Mazda 3 feels much faster. But man the Protege felt fun to throw into a corner!

Never driven a Celica. But I'm sure it's sportier than the above.

In reply to Tom1200 :

Thanks! It seems like a great car, and the aftermarket and racing part is awesome. i enjoy driving it. The only part I'm struggling with is the complete lack of cool factor. It felt like a minivan inside and looks like one outside. But small price to pay for fun

In reply to GameboyRMH :

I did notice that. it felt buzzy and it just wanted to rev. I am really going to try to test drive a 2 and/or protege.

I love the 2zz. The celica, on paoper, seems like the best true sports car alternative to the fit/2 but I'm not sure

In reply to SKJSS (formerly Klayfish) :

Thank you!

I'm going to try to find a p5 to test out if I can. It seems like it at least has some more cool factor over the fit (and lesser extent the 2) by being a sporty model and a sedan, not minivan lookin thingy (ahem fit)

I like the 2 a lot more than the fit - mostly looks wise but the consensus seems to be better chassis, suspension, and steering. But a couple things I'm uncertain about is the complete lack of cool factor on either one, and the fact that I'll be the slowest guy on the road. Bit of an ego hit

Is the celica as fun as the little guys? I'm gonna try to find one to test but they're pretty rare. But it offers true sports car-ness rather than econobox-ness

In reply to CyberEric :

I didn't love the fit's forward visibility. I like the fit less than the 2 - looks wise and from the consensus that the 2 has a better chassis. Mazda seems to have a penchant for great chassis with lackluster engines (miata anyone). 

Surprised to hear the protege is more raw. How does it handle compared to the little guys? The protege feels like a sportier car rather than just an econobox.

Celica seems to be a good compromise offering true sports car-ness over the 2 and fit but im not sure - never driven one. 

So I am honestyl struggling a bit again. 

Fit vs. 2 - the fit has a much better aftermarket and is more competitive/popular on track, but I much prefer the looks of the 2 (fit is a mini minivan). Consensus is also mazda2 has a better chassis and steering

Celica on paper looks like a good next step up in sportiness from the fit/2. True sports chassis and engine, but bigger and more refined? Haven't driven one yet

There's like 2 non-rusty decent proteges I've found, plus the one down in houston. I know nothing about it and it's hard to compare a car you know nothing about and have never driven.

I found 2 fiesta ST's for my  price range (one for $6,000). I know they are the same chassis as the 2, but an actual hot hatch so I'm seriously considering it. More expensive than the 2 or fit but actually sporty and faster. The $6k one might be the answer? Same lightweight engaging chassis as the 2 with real power (ish), and true sportiness and hotted up-ness. 

Lastly, the FR-S. I really really really really want one. However, the only ones I've found are $7,500-$8,000. I am making $20,000 by august when i go to college (and will have to quit my job). $12,000 of that goes to my parents for rent (1k per month) which leaves me with $8,000 to myself. I am getting a parental car contribution of $1,500. So that is $9,500 all in for the car, taxes/title/registration, oil changes and maintenance, gas, any repairs, tires, consumables, and track time. I don't know how much money i can negotiate off, and having never owned a car I'm not sure how much I will need to last me until next winter when I pick my job back up for break. So the FR-S is incredibly tempting because it is a true, lightweight, engaging, RWD sports chassis (with 4 seats for technical adherence to parental restrictions), but I'm worried that I might bend myself over a barrel financially. I don't want to make a massive mistake and possibly not be able to drive my car if I can't afford repairs. At the same time the FR-S seems so special and different from the others on here that i really REALLY want one. I really want to learn true RWD, front rear, manual dynamics with the most miata-like platform. 

Lastly, found some decent 8th gen SI's I can afford (under $6k) , one decent EM1 for $6k, and one zx3 svt for my budget so those might be competitors but i havent driven the last two and only drove a really crappy example of the 8th gen si

After 14 pages, I didn't think I could add anything helpful, but I'll add one I forgot: the EP3 Civic Si. Everyone hated them when they came out, so they are cheaper, but with the right mods I hear they can be great. 

My guess is it's gonna come down to what's available, not what you want most. Keep as many options open. I would not rule out a Mazda 3, or Focus, or XRS, or Civic Si, or 2, or Fit, or Protege, or even a base Fiesta with the I4. Heck, a first gen Mazda 6 with the 2.3 and a MT is a pretty fun car if you ask me.

I would however rule out an FRS, but i hate Subaru engines, so ignore me and keep that option open if you don't mind them.