Welcome to the new GrassrootsMotorsports.com

Today, it sucks. And that's how it usually is when websites/magazines change.

It should suck less tomorrow, and less the day after that. After a while, I'll forget how much I thought it sucked (and how much better I thought the old board was).

If, after a few weeks, I still think it sucks, then it probably really sucks.

I think the wide band on the left side of my screen will suck--even after a few weeks of getting used to it.

Sorry for being a bit late migrating over to the new board. I'm glad to see so many of the regulars in here so far, and also to see that we still aren't lacking for opinions. :nice:

Thanks for all the hard work on the new message board...I appreciate your efforts!

everything seems to move slow and slower. How can I review 30 different topics quickly?

http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/grm/the-big-new-site-faq/445/page1/

I don't particularly like the new layout, but the thing that kills it for me is the speed, or more accurately the lack of it. The whole site is way too slooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooow!

its like a new pair of socks, not sure if I like it?

This layout is also much less friendly to resizing and the like. On the old forums, if I used the browser to increase the size of everything (so I could effin' read it) the layout would happily reflow within the new constraints. The new layout insists on being too wide for the window when I expand it ... heck it also insisted that I increase the size my window from the default size I've been using for five years so I didn't have to scroll right and left to see everything. Not happy-making.

OK, so once again how is this "last post" thing supposed to work?

I am having to try to find which page I was on last and then find where the last post that I read was and by that time I've lost interest in the post.

However it is supposed to work, it ain't workin' like it used to. And it definitely ain't intuitive!

I presume that someday I might get used to the little icons at the bottom of each post, but the first 2 just simply make no sense from an iconic standpoint it is just something I'll have to cram into my brain. The last 2 make sense, but they are labelled.

A flag with an exclamation point? HUH?

A quote box, a Zero and 2 different arrows? Yeah that makes sense.

I'm not feelin it here.

But the absolute worst thing on the whole new set up is the HUGE blank column on the left hand side. That simply makes all the pages much longer than they need to be and requires much more scrolling. Not good internet design at all!!!!!!!!!

No, I take it back, the worst thing is the fact that none of the links to the bookmarks to the old threads don't work! The old forum and all the data it contains might as well never have existed. At a bare minimum, and this isn't really a good solution, you need to list the old forums under the list under "Discussion Boards."

In the "Clubs" section, can you change the form to not require a phone number? I added our regional club, but we don't have a phone contact... just email.

Edit- The email link that I put in the contact info doesn't show up... and it's the only "real" info!

carguy123 wrote: OK, so once again how is this "last post" thing supposed to work? I am having to try to find which page I was on last and then find where the last post that I read was and by that time I've lost interest in the post.

See http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/grm/the-big-new-site-faq/445/page1/

I presume that someday I might get used to the little icons at the bottom of each post, but the first 2 just simply make no sense from an iconic standpoint it is just something I'll have to cram into my brain. The last 2 make sense, but they are labelled.

When you mouse over them tooltips pop up giving more explanation what each does.

A quote box, a Zero and 2 different arrows? Yeah that makes sense.

Yes, it does, actually.

Not good internet design at all!!!!!!!!!

Yeah. Of course you're qualified to make that proclamation, having been privy to the months of decision-making leading up to the final design.

Gearhead, I don't think Phone is a required field. Let me look into that. And the email thing. I'll add 'em to the list.

Tim Baxter wrote:

carguy123 wrote: OK, so once again how is this "last post" thing supposed to work? I am having to try to find which page I was on last and then find where the last post that I read was and by that time I've lost interest in the post.

See http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/grm/the-big-new-site-faq/445/page1/

I presume that someday I might get used to the little icons at the bottom of each post, but the first 2 just simply make no sense from an iconic standpoint it is just something I'll have to cram into my brain. The last 2 make sense, but they are labelled.

When you mouse over them tooltips pop up giving more explanation what each does.

A quote box, a Zero and 2 different arrows? Yeah that makes sense.

Yes, it does, actually.

Not good internet design at all!!!!!!!!!

Yeah. Of course you're qualified to make that proclamation, having been privy to the months of decision-making leading up to the final design. Gearhead, I don't think Phone is a required field. Let me look into that. And the email thing. I'll add 'em to the list.

Actually I and everyone else who is using the forum have the ultimate qualifications as to good internet design.

Your committee meeting has nothing to do with good design only your desires. What you are saying is that I could get together some planning sessions and decide that pictures of Brittany exiting a limo sans underwear was good design and that would make it so. Look at the number of complaints and you'll see the issues.

As I am writing this reply I see another issue. The Preview box (and the HUGE left side) takes up valuable real estate for typing. I am having to scroll side to side to see what I am writing. You can get rid of the Preview and use a button like everyone else for the few times you actually need to preview your post.

Ahhhh, now I see the Last Post thingy. But if you aren't on the very first post you don't see that. How about a label on that column like you labeled the 2 right hand side icons under each post?

Now once again, how are the 2 arrows, balloon, a Zero self evident and what does voting a comment upwards mean? The posts come in the order in which they were received.

You totally ignored the old post/forum issue. That is a very big oversight.

No. Unless you know the design process, you don't know why things were done the way they were. It ain't to look pretty. There's a reason behind every decision. Without understanding that, you're talking about your personal preferences.

Again, I'd suggest reading the FAQ. It will answer a lot of your questions. And I didn't ignore the old post/forum issue. I've already answered it... FAQ.

No Tim, you have A design, but it's not a GOOD design.

What you have is a collection of your personal preferences, what the users sees and how they react to it tells you if you have a GOOD design.

Ultimately you want the user to feel comfortable with your site so that they will use your site and products more. There are always compromises, but if a site is intuitive and easy to read/navigate then more people are likely to use it hence enhancing your web presence.

While the old system wasn't the most grand glorious site it did work. You had patchwork underneath but the surface (the only part we care about) was intuitive enough (read that similar enough to other forums) that you could get accustomed to it quickly. This one is clunky and hard to use and understand plus you threw out the baby with the bath water. You've have abandoned the wealth of data and posts that was underneath it. Yes, I can find the old grayed out posts, but it's a totally separate system and not part of the new. The old post and history could have been made a part of the new.

And yes, I have read the FAQ, it seems I have to read it 3-4 times a day, and while it gives some answers they are not always the exact questions we would be asking. And therein in is the point. It shouldn't cause this much of an uproar nor should it require constant referral to an FAQ.

You know, you're welcome to your opinion -- and probably should have shared it during the beta testing -- but if you think ANYTHING on the site was done arbitrarily, on a whim, or due to ANYONE's personal preferences, you're just flat wrong.

But whatever. I don't have time for this. I have bugs to fix and features to implement.

carguy123 wrote: But the absolute worst thing on the whole new set up is the HUGE blank column on the left hand side. That simply makes all the pages much longer than they need to be and requires much more scrolling. Not good internet design at all!!!!!!!!!

+1

I do like the rest of the site, and the general look-and-feel. Much snappier today too!

turns off adblock

OH!! :omg: Now I see what the wide left column is there for...

turns adblock back on

Tim Baxter wrote: You know, you're welcome to your opinion -- and probably should have shared it during the beta testing -- but if you think ANYTHING on the site was done arbitrarily, on a whim, or due to ANYONE's personal preferences, you're just flat wrong...But whatever. I don't have time for this. I have bugs to fix and features to implement.

My, aren't we testy...as long as you acknowledge we can have an opinion, I have to agree with all the other "complainers". It's hard to read...it's not easy to navigate(for those of us who don't work in the industry)...it is painfully slow.....I'm constantly scrolling...and no, I didn't get an e-mail about the changes and asking for my input. All this fixing and adding' features' should have been done before rolling out the product. I don't for a minute doubt it's been hard work and time consuming, but it just is not as user friendly as most other sites and what we are used to. Instead of attacking the people expressing their complaints, why not try listening to us. Even E-Bay, when they put up their '"new and improved"format, left a link so users could use the "traditional" one that they were used to navigating. OTOH, if this is only to stop all of the canoes, I guess I'll have to deal with it....or go away.

Yes, I am a little testy. I'm not sure I've slept in a week. And why haven't I slept? Because over the past week or more I've been steadily listening to the "complainers" and have implemented literally hundreds of bug fixes, changes, feature requests and post count updates. That's hundreds of changes made specifically based on feedback from you all.

I'd probably have hundreds more done -- maybe even some of yours -- if I could only another 10 or 20 hours in a day.

I'm sorry you didn't get an email. We certainly tried to get people to come test it out ahead of time, and gave quite a bit of time to do so.

There's this much of an uproar anytime a forum even changes its colors. I think Tim's done a hell of a job, and the extent of the work and the integration of the complete site will become more obvious as you look around and as new features are turned on.

It's tough being a web designer, especially one working on a forum. How would you like having a couple of thousand random people following you around all day and offering unsolicited opinions on everything you do?

Tim has listened to us. A number of features that he wasn't originally planning to include were added during the beta process, and I think the site ended up better for it. Some things - such as the width of the side column - aren't going away but they will be put to good use.

Keith wrote: Some things - such as the width of the side column - aren't going away but they will be put to good use.

Good use? It is there for ads, plain and simple. While playing with the ads by posting odd things in a thread is entertaining at times, it isn't enough to keep some from complaining about it, pure and simple. It is even more obnoxious when you use a browser with an ad-blocker so all you get is blank gray space. Since Baxter has said it isn't going anywhere and since they are being very tight-lipped about the other features that will be provided or integrated into the sidebar, I'm not going to say anything more about it. It is up to Baxter and GRM to prove its worth otherwise.

With that said, I do like the majority of the new board and its features (sidebar aside) I also appreciate the work Baxter has put in so far. Though I feel he shouldn't be going it alone as it seems the rest of the GRM staff is mostly taking a hands-off approach at the moment. Not good, it makes it seem like he's the one driving the change. I'm sure they are busy putting the mags together, but this is a major change for some of the core of your readership.

I am in IT, I've done large scale software deployments, with just as many (or more) vocal people who have not only my ear, but the ear of my superiors. I feel his pain, I really do. However, he has stated they he doesn't have an IT background and this is showing in how the board transition was done and how it is currently being handled. So, as an IT professional, I feel some points need to be made from a lessons learned aspect:

Why wasn't there a better transition plan created and implemented for dealing with the existing board? At the very least, someone should have been hired to look at integrating that old data into the new board. A real DB admin could probably accomplish this. As dear old dad would say, text is text it can be manipulated anyway you want provided you have the skills to do it. If it was too costly or to time consuming to do in the timeframe, then make sure the populace is notified and that a note is made to revisit that problem later on.

Why were the user names and their data handled the way they were? I understand that the database between the two sites are vastly different, requiring new registrations, etc. However, aside from Dr Hess' work on a migration script for the post counts, there wasn't much done in that regards. it seems that if the transition had been allowed to happen more slowly that more notification to the users could have been made and they could have had time to make any changes necessary to their profiles, allowing the automated method a better chance to work.

Why was the new board pushed to go live after only a week of live testing? Seems like a another week would have been a better solution given the way users tend to use the board. This is something that could have been decided once it was made available to the wider audience and they were given a chance to work with it.

Also why was the cut over so abrubt? I was notified of the new board via e-mail, did the sign up dance and starting posting between the two, getting used to the differences and making note of changes, etc. Then Baxter posted on the old board saying that the board was going to transition sometime that week. The next day, it seems like the old board was closed and the new board had gone "live" So sometime = tomorrow? Specific dates need to be published to the users and a rollback plan should be at least thought of.

I think the magazine could have handled it better by simply having someone else from the mag actually replying to the chatter while Baxter focuses on the work necessary in the background. Also given a little more time, perhaps a note could have made it into the magazine as well.

From the outside, looking in, I want to say that some of the pain he is feeling right now could have been avoided with better planing. I do know how Baxter feels. He is getting beaten up by seemingly everyone, he's working his ass off, under a ton of stress and all he wants is for things to quiet down so he can calm down and clear his mind to think a little bit about one or two problems, no't every last one of our complaints. All I have to say, is "Welcome to IT, now you know why we get the "big bucks"

So as a fellow IT person, I say to you, get someone at the magazine involved with the public aspect of this ASAP so you can quiet those nattering flies and work from data being given to you in a much more calm and reasonable manner. Then understand that work you do while under the effects of a brain suffering from a lack of sleep, being propped up by a caffeine and a need to finish the job will rarely be your best work. It really is ok sometimes to say, "I need to rest" and disconnect and take a quick nap.

Good luck with it and let us know if you need any help, Stefan

""

Baxter has been involved in the "chatter" because he is addressing users' concerns. And yes, we are hard at work producing magazines. Also, we're trying to keep this in perspective: Most of the complaints are specific issues that have cropped and need to be remedied, not some snowballing PR disaster that needs a staff member to walk in and calm the room before the crowd riots and grabs for the few rations the UN has dropped. Baxter is doing an admirable job with them, and with the site as a whole--which, again, big-picture, is launching well--and we're concentrating on searching for bugs ourselves, communicating with him, and giving him as many attaboys as we can.

Besides, if I were to respond directly to the tone of some of these posts, the filter would render the response largely meaningless.

Thanks to all for your patience, for your willingness to communicate, and for your overwhelmingly good attitudes.

To the few who greet this attempt to solve some very real problems on our end with a spirit of whiny entitlement and suspicious I-don't-like-it-you're-trying-to-screw-me-with-this-free-board-you-host attitude, um, lighten up.

Oh, and the large bar at the left is our space, not some dedicated whore-mongering corral. We want to offer added/spotlighted content there, try to make the site more entertaining.

Margie

Um, yeah, what she said.

Baxter has done an amazing job designing and implementing this new site (which essentially went public-beta with a not-too-well-hidden post on the old board a couple of weeks ago) and the transition was—as far as I have seen—largely flawless.

Some people seem to forget that we're users of this forum as well. The post counts of some of the staff members rival those of some of the board hardcores. So insinuating that we're designing something purposefully unfriendly, or—even worse—that we simply don't care, kind of pisses me off.

To his credit, Baxter has been absolutely amazing in dealing with the problems encountered with the new software. Most folks' concerns have been dealt with nearly in real time. Sorry, until we have his pre-emptive neural transmitter installed we can't get to your problems any faster.

So, yeah, sorry for trying to make things better. I guess we'll all just go kill ourselves now.

jg

Hang in there Baxter, your doing fine.

Someone's dropping rations? How did I miss that. Seriously, I've been on several boards that have changed over the last few months and this is the only one where the users feedback was even considered. Many of us have had complaints, and many have been silly. He has made the changes he could and seems to be focusing on getting everything to work right.

Like anything else you will be able to get used to it and be happy again or you won't. As far as the column on the left, it seems as though it's going to be there whether we want it or not. At least it hasn't been filled with fornicating midgets. Unless I've just ruined a surprise.

Let's ease up on him for a couple days with anything that's not a technical problem and maybe once everything is operational either he can address our style questions or we will be more comfortable using whats here.

At least it hasn't been filled with fornicating midgets. Unless I've just ruined a surprise.

Dammit, Wally.:nice:

Ooo look, it was filled with a Fox wagon! The next best thing to a fornicating midget really, although I prefer the Sprite.

Random reader's rides, that's kinda cool. Although technically it should be a Random Reader's Ride, as there's only one. There's always gonna be a critic :grin:

How many times do I have to hit Refresh to make one of my cars come up?

one...