In reply to Antihero (Forum Supporter) :
Perhaps one of these years we can make a Western Rockies team happen. I don't know about three weeks, as I did 2020 in ten days and that was by way of Indiana and almost two days dormant in GA. Still. A low effort car and road trip is a great time. The destination is worth the drive.
In reply to barefootskater (Shaun) :
Or we just do our own venue if no one else wants to play.
barefootskater (Shaun) said:In reply to Antihero (Forum Supporter) :
Perhaps one of these years we can make a Western Rockies team happen. I don't know about three weeks, as I did 2020 in ten days and that was by way of Indiana and almost two days dormant in GA. Still. A low effort car and road trip is a great time. The destination is worth the drive.
3 weeks is more because if I'm driving that way I'll want to stop at a few places along the way. We were planning a week in New Orleans last year too.
I picked up a challenge car in Kentucky and drove it back home. 8 hours was enough driving at a time for me.
Stampie said:In reply to frenchyd :
There's a lot of cars below a Chevy that can beat a Jaguar. Just saying.
Thundering Elegance. That's how Road and Track described Group 44's Jaguar.
Somehow a 4 door Ford Focus with a turbo kit doesn't have the same panache.
Now a Studebaker with a GM Atlas that's approaching that level. Or a Plymford.
I don't mean to minimize the creativity and brilliance of many Challenge entrants. Which is why I'll be doing a local version of the challenge. Hoping that others not able to attend the Florida event will duplicate their own local event.
There are issues with trying to run a Challenge on your own.
The biggest is who would actually run it? I've done plenty of just autocrosses in my time, and they are hard enough. And I've also done a national convention that included multuiple events- the Challenge is FAR more like a National Convention than just an autocross. Autocross is just a lot, insurance, cones and a timer. The Challenge adds a drag strip willing to host your event- including the additional insurance and alternate inspections. It also adds a concours- which means judging people, and hosting them. And the autocross isn't a normal one, since there are also drivers included.
It's pretty amazing to me that MsM can do this every single year- as just that is a ton of work. Having it at the same place every year, with the same drivers and judges (mostly) helps IMMENSELY.
So maybe you just want to run one component of it- nothing wrong with that. But if you do that via an already existing event- how does challenge cars fit into that? Some of the cars fit really well (even if unexpected) into already existing classes, but most don't. That's an issue, too.
Anyway, I think some of you think this is an easy event to put on, and I just want to post that correction.
(I've stopped more because we stopped doing motorsports about a decade ago- had our fun, had our burnout, and when a health scare made me stay out of the sun for a year, I didn't miss it. Still have projects go through my brain- the best one I had was a LONG time ago- I got a GT Jr for free that was in the same condition that one sold on Ebay for $350. Drop in the turbo powertrain I had- that would have been a fun car. Oh, well)
In reply to Antihero (Forum Supporter) :
I'm suggesting that there aren't even challenge legal cars and willing participants Nationwide to have a 150 entry field if entry was free and within a 150 mile radius of their home.
If there was I'd be focusing my studies on family law and not business law.
I'm not saying that it can't be cultivated but it needs to be cultivated at the regional level. I'm all for the idea of season long regional competition with graduation for winners to the main event. But regional single event competitions will detract instead of grow the main event. Conferences play entire seasons to determine who gets to the playoffs and that's what makes the single game elimination or series playoffs mean something, the merit of the competitors has been proven.
Within the past few years I've also become aware of an interesting aspect with regards to the challenge. For many competitors it's solely about the build aspect of the challenge and they merely make a single run on course in the car that they built before handing the keys over to the pro drivers. If there's a local hotshoe driver who thinks that they'd be competitive in Lincoln, see if they'd be willing to drive your build to Gainesville to show what they have against some people with jackets in their closets.
I love the idea of Gainesville as a championship, without qualifying being required, but that all would start in organizing classing and getting competition at the local level to create enough value to warrant financial support, whether by from other competitors or from sponsorship partners, to get winners to Gainesville. But the fact that no geographic location mentions so far within this thread has even gotten a third person to say, I'd play. Reinforces my questioning of the viability.
The largest population of challenge eligible vehicles that I know of competes in WDCR rallycross. A few times I have kicked around the idea of a rallycross challenge and the general concensus within that population of owners is, we're already doing it 8-12 times a year, so why?
If the distance of getting to the challenge is an issue, And it is for many of us there have been three years that I've intended on getting down there and I STILL haven't. Don't let it stopp you from building your build, having fun with it, autocrossing it and embarrassing far more expensive machines. Fun with cars is the goal after all.
Organizing and massive rulesets can lead to burn out, k.i.s.s. and enjoy the build you created.
I definitely don't think it's an easy event to put on
Also, with regards to geographic location of entries they primarily seem to be from east of the Mississippi and then extending along the Gulf Coast across Texas to the DFW area.
The plain states once north of Texas appears to be the divide. Geographically a large portion of the country is out of the fold. Population wise, California, the PNW and Denver are the main populations excluded. That being said California, the PNW and Colorado have amazing car cultures, incredibly creative minds and some amazing engineers.
There are automotive minds, companies and resources in California that could willingly support a challenge type event. If you think that I wouldn't enjoy watching a 35 to 40 minute review of each and every challenge car done by Matt Farah and Doug DeMuro, then I don't even know what to say. If there was a California event I could also see about half of the Hoonigan staff fielding entries and having an internal competition. If pitched to the right content creators and potential competitors, a California challenge inspired event could be MUCH larger than Gainesville. Tire manufacturers would be lining up to write checks if those parties were on board with the event and creating content at it.
Gridlife is hosting a motorsports and music festival the week before PPIHC at PPIR, that would be another potential viable option. Their financial support from Falken would likely enable them to get a winner to Gainesville.
captdownshift (Forum Supporter) said:In reply to Antihero (Forum Supporter) :
I'm suggesting that there aren't even challenge legal cars and willing participants Nationwide to have a 150 entry field if entry was free and within a 150 mile radius of their home.
If there was I'd be focusing my studies on family law and not business law.
I'm not saying that it can't be cultivated but it needs to be cultivated at the regional level. I'm all for the idea of season long regional competition with graduation for winners to the main event. But regional single event competitions will detract instead of grow the main event. Conferences play entire seasons to determine who gets to the playoffs and that's what makes the single game elimination or series playoffs mean something, the merit of the competitors has been proven.
Within the past few years I've also become aware of an interesting aspect with regards to the challenge. For many competitors it's solely about the build aspect of the challenge and they merely make a single run on course in the car that they built before handing the keys over to the pro drivers. If there's a local hotshoe driver who thinks that they'd be competitive in Lincoln, see if they'd be willing to drive your build to Gainesville to show what they have against some people with jackets in their closets.
I love the idea of Gainesville as a championship, without qualifying being required, but that all would start in organizing classing and getting competition at the local level to create enough value to warrant financial support, whether by from other competitors or from sponsorship partners, to get winners to Gainesville. But the fact that no geographic location mentions so far within this thread has even gotten a third person to say, I'd play. Reinforces my questioning of the viability.
The largest population of challenge eligible vehicles that I know of competes in WDCR rallycross. A few times I have kicked around the idea of a rallycross challenge and the general concensus within that population of owners is, we're already doing it 8-12 times a year, so why?
If the distance of getting to the challenge is an issue, And it is for many of us there have been three years that I've intended on getting down there and I STILL haven't. Don't let it stopp you from building your build, having fun with it, autocrossing it and embarrassing far more expensive machines. Fun with cars is the goal after all.
Organizing and massive rulesets can lead to burn out, k.i.s.s. and enjoy the build you created.
I would think that a lot of people on here would do a challenge if it was close to them. I don't think 150 would be impossible especially if you considered past competitors that made the long journey but do it rarely because of distance. I think a look at a map of the subscribers of themagazine would be a good first step and see if there's enough people interested in the magazines content in an area.
The times that this has been mentioned on here over the years a lot are worried about it changing the Challenge as it is and it really wouldn't. I wouldn't recommend making someone go to one location because of how close it is, you can go to wherever you want. I want to see more people getting the chance to actually do the challenge.
I don't think it would be easy at all but I think the idea has merit, and since this comes up somewhat frequently, I'm not the only one
captdownshift (Forum Supporter) said:Also, with regards to geographic location of entries they primarily seem to be from east of the Mississippi and then extending along the Gulf Coast across Texas to the DFW area.
The plain states once north of Texas appears to be the divide. Geographically a large portion of the country is out of the fold. Population wise, California, the PNW and Denver are the main populations excluded. That being said California, the PNW and Colorado have amazing car cultures, incredibly creative minds and some amazing engineers.
There are automotive minds, companies and resources in California that could willingly support a challenge type event. If you think that I wouldn't enjoy watching a 35 to 40 minute review of each and every challenge car done by Matt Farah and Doug DeMuro, then I don't even know what to say. If there was a California event I could also see about half of the Hoonigan staff fielding entries and having an internal competition. If pitched to the right content creators and potential competitors, a California challenge inspired event could be MUCH larger than Gainesville. Tire manufacturers would be lining up to write checks if those parties were on board with the event and creating content at it.
Gridlife is hosting a motorsports and music festival the week before PPIHC at PPIR, that would be another potential viable option. Their financial support from Falken would likely enable them to get a winner to Gainesville.
I agree with all this.
I doubt I'll place very high to begin with because I'm doing this for fun, maybe that changes once I get to a Challenge but that's where I'm at now. I would probably be one of the guys that would build it, take a few runs and then have a professional drive it.
That s IMHO the demographic that will go most for another closer challenge. Like I said.....3 weeks isn't something a lot of people would do. Sure you can cannonball it easily enough but at that point.....why? That long of miles basically depends on a few extra days added in case of problems anyway so you might as well stop in a few cool places too.
So the way to test engagement in terms of how many people would show up if it was in their backyard is to create a subclass with a local autocross group. The local group with accept the proposal with open arms, as it's additional entries, as long as the entries aren't prone to blowing up or dropping fluids on track. A once a season pre-competition tech inspection can be required to run in the class. If they have a supporting shop for the club, it could be required within the ruleset that the inspection be done there. (The shop knowing the class and the fact that the cars are being built is not going to attempt to upcharge anything It's just going to be checking over work viability making sure the car isn't going to puke oil, transmission, power steering or coolant all over the course, and of course hubs, bearings, battery tie downs). The cost of the inspection would be exempt for build cost.
As with anything, value has to be created. To draw competitors out and to gain any partnership support.
I'm firmly of the opinion unless the self made celebrity personalities within California are on board, that until a local group host a subclass that has at least four cars competing in it, that it's really a bunch of people saying that would be fun I would totally do it, but not actually posting up to do it or still being 800 miles apart from each other. A local subclass is still the litmus test for viability. From a competitor standpoint and from a willingness to organize it standpoint.
Very interested if in west coast.
All I wanted to see is if GRm would be interested in attaching their name to it. Perhaps I should first grow it, and then Pitch to them.
and it's not as hard as you think to do this event. You do it differently and it costs you nothing.
1) local autocross club. You wanna post your times on your challenge build? Everyone show up at the specified club event. Record times.
2) next week it's the drag strip. Same town.
3) next weekend it's cars and coffee, you get judged by the judges. Same town.
and if possible, you do it all in one weekend
all along the way the participants pay there own way. The results are tallied and the winners get something. You make a circuit out of it. Yeah you've got a fast car, can it turn? Sure it turns, does it look good?
If you think that I wouldn't enjoy watching a 35 to 40 minute review of each and every challenge car done by Matt Farah and Doug DeMuro, then I don't even know what to say. If there was a California event I could also see about half of the Hoonigan staff fielding entries and having an internal competition.
Any of this would be absolutely amazing, even just at the normal Challenge in Gainesville.
I've said it before: I think the Challenge concours (usually Saturday morning) could also be a Cars&Coffee and/or Radwood style car show event open to the public, with the paddock area reserved for Challenge cars only. It would get a lot more eyes on the Challenge and perhaps inspire more participants. It may even attract other "internet car personalities" that could help grow the event's clout and recognition. I hate that I have to explain to 95% of car enthusiasts what the $2000 Challenge is when I spend so much time and effort on my builds. Even after winning it with Datsaniti, I still had to explain what the decals on the doors were for at Atlanta's infamous Caffeine and Octane.
Wouldn't it be easier to just have a $2000 class as a part of the SCCA Solo II series, or even for Solo I or time trials. You are piggybacking on an existing event instead of building something from the ground up. You could bring the proposal up to SCCA or maybe NASA. That might even make it easier to find sponsors.
In reply to Snowdoggie (Forum Supporter) :
Why get them involved? You show up, tell all your participants that are in the know to enter the exhibition class. In the pits, everyone finds out what's going on. The next year, you've got more contenders.
sanctjoning bodies will want all the legal paperwork. If they have no idea that some facialbook group is coming to crash the party, the better. It's just like when a porsche club or a Miata club does an event.
Vajingo said:Perhaps I should first grow it, and then Pitch to them.
Yes. When a good portion of a company is business model is event development and promotion. They're not going to be quick to jump on board an event project of which they don't have control of. Especially what is effectively a new event add a new venue 3,000 mi away from home base with no guarantee or accurate predictor of registration level.
GRM sponsoring the inaugural Pine Mountain Hillclimb was a significantly big deal. And there were several pieces not just involved, but committed to ensure the event's success. Starting with the hosting county, by all accounts they were simply amazing. Then you had the visionary, mister let's make the SCCA about having fun second (safety ALWAYS has to be first) Mr. Wagner. And thirdly to make sure that things ran relatively smoothly, a large portion of season grizzlied Hill climb organizers and vets from Pennsylvania traveled the 300 to 400 miles each way to ensure that things would run smoothly and hiccups that come along the way of a new venue a new event were addressed so everything wouldn't come to a screeching halt. Lastly to ensure that word got out to potential participants and within the community GRM came in raised brand awareness provided coverage while encouraging others to still create their own and share their stories. There was a mountain of effort, support and commitment by a small army of vested individuals that A) made that event possible and B) made supporting of that event worthwhile as there was confidence in what the end result would be for the community at large and all of those involved.
In reply to Snowdoggie (Forum Supporter) :
Yes.
As for the suggestion that all sanctioning bodies are going to one is legal paperwork anyway... For insurance purposes you're going to have to have a tech inspection at any event. If you and your friends show up to party unannounced and two of them need to be pushed off course because shoestring budget and not a proper shake down. Then you all won't be welcomed back. Be open honest and forthcoming about the plans goals and objectives (which pro tip, You have to have all three before you even start) or else you're going to give a negative reflection of what you're attempting to represent. If you're not willing to stand up and say what your goals are and the objectives are for the event then you're already doing others involved or those following you, a great disservice and sooner rather than later they will end up distancing themselves from you if not taking the ball and going home.
Quote unquote, crashing the party is exactly NOT how to do things and it is certainly not how to get a publication willing to lend their name or support to an event. Event management is literally about planning and promotion, crashing the party is the antithesis of that.
In reply to captdownshift (Forum Supporter) :
Just saying it is possible. You're not "crashing a party". That was just terminology. But you also don't have to tell any sanctioning body that your club is showing up. You should, and you will, but you don't have to. The fact that me and three of my friends are coming to your open event means nothing.
alfadriver said:There are issues with trying to run a Challenge on your own.
The biggest is who would actually run it? I've done plenty of just autocrosses in my time, and they are hard enough. And I've also done a national convention that included multuiple events- the Challenge is FAR more like a National Convention than just an autocross. Autocross is just a lot, insurance, cones and a timer. The Challenge adds a drag strip willing to host your event- including the additional insurance and alternate inspections. It also adds a concours- which means judging people, and hosting them. And the autocross isn't a normal one, since there are also drivers included.
It's pretty amazing to me that MsM can do this every single year- as just that is a ton of work. Having it at the same place every year, with the same drivers and judges (mostly) helps IMMENSELY.
So maybe you just want to run one component of it- nothing wrong with that. But if you do that via an already existing event- how does challenge cars fit into that? Some of the cars fit really well (even if unexpected) into already existing classes, but most don't. That's an issue, too.
Anyway, I think some of you think this is an easy event to put on, and I just want to post that correction.
(I've stopped more because we stopped doing motorsports about a decade ago- had our fun, had our burnout, and when a health scare made me stay out of the sun for a year, I didn't miss it. Still have projects go through my brain- the best one I had was a LONG time ago- I got a GT Jr for free that was in the same condition that one sold on Ebay for $350. Drop in the turbo powertrain I had- that would have been a fun car. Oh, well)
Pick the three legs of the challenge.
The drag race? A quarter mile is a quarter mile. OK altitude will effect results as will air density. Big deal. Quarter mile times should be enough. If it's real tight, we can have fun making excuses.
Same with the autocross. Post fast time of the day and what your time is. I'm sure someone can calculate a formula to compare apples to apples.
Finally the concourses. Say 6-8 picture and a short statement about features etc.
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