In reply to z31maniac :
don't forget all cars get 22mpg
In reply to z31maniac :
don't forget all cars get 22mpg
codrus (Forum Supporter) said:bobzilla said:Good god base civics are $30k? For what? Top level forte gt (si equivalent) is $28k out the door.
Base Civic MSRP is $23,750, the EX is the one with nice features but base powertrain and has an MSRP of $28K. Si starts around $29K. Out-the-door price is going to vary depending on what (if any) discount you get off MSRP and sales tax rate in your state. $30K seemed like a conservative (high) assumption and also a nice round number.
Posts like this really make realise that Peru ain't the best place for someone into cars. A Civic EXL here is $36,990 (with the 1.5T /180BHP/CVT) - it's the only version available. They won't tell you how much a type R is without a trip to the dealer and a full credit check (!).
The most powerful Kia is a 1.6 Cerato with 126 BHP. Hyundai do offer the N-Line Elantra, but only automatic at $30,590. If you want 3 yrs finance on it, that becomes a total of $40,398 - and that's cheaper than the banks would offer. The base model 125BHP Elantra is $20,890 (what a difference to Honda).
A base model Mazda 3 Sport (2.0 MT) is $23,990. I keep looking to replace my poor old 1st gen Mazda 3, but the math just doesn't work, especially with the atrocious interest rates here.
When we were first here we bought our 1st (and only) new car, a 2013 Mazda 2. If it weren't for space for transporting kids (rear facing at that point), I would have kept it. We were looking at new Mazda 3s pre-Covid for around $18,000, but then Covid happened and then we built a house instead 
I grew up with no money, and drove beaters for many many years. We got to a point where we can afford to buy new cars, so we do. It's one less headache to worry about, and it's the easy button. It's one thing we don't need to stress about. My cars will always run, my kids cars are reliable and safe, etc. I'm well aware it's not the cheapest way to do it, but I'm ok with that.
In reply to bobzilla :
My KN gets about that, in town while smashing the gas pedal like it owes me money. And I guess it does in a way.
My reasons echo everyone elses. When I bought the Kona in March of 22, I was lucky to find it damn close to MSRP and got an interest rate half of what I would have for a used car a model year or two old. I was actually looking at used GTIs and WRXs until I found the KN. The warranty and free 3 years/36k scheduled maintenance from Hyundai is nice too. Since it gets tracked, though, I tend to do my own oil changes so I know what's getting put in it.
I haven't bought new yet but I'm getting closer every year. I've worked on my own cars for the last 20 years in the rust belt and having to turn a wrench on a rusty car is one of the most miserable experiences you can have. It's the quickest way to destroy your passion, the garage just becomes a tormenting dungeon of frustration that you have to subject yourself to in order to make financial sense out of owning multiple old turds.
Whenever I find a rust-free old gem I tend to garage it all winter to keep it that way, which has left me juggling winter beaters for half the year. I've done this my entire life and the older I get, the more I hate working on those rusty pieces of e36m3. I find myself wanting to ditch the beaters and move to one reliable, rust-free daily driver. Historically the cars I've bought have been 10+ years old, and now I'm starting to think maybe I should try out ownership from years 0-10.
From a financial standpoint even a cheap new car is going to be more expensive than my rotating beaters anywhere in the 5 year horizon, but the upside is that once the car loan is paid off I should have a good run of extremely low-cost ownership years. The 5 year return isn't there, but the 10 year return might be getting relatively close if I can manage to keep a car that long.
So that's my thinking. I haven't made the plunge yet, but used car markets are ridiculous and new has been looking very enticing lately. And even if it costs a little extra every month, it means my time in the garage will be spent working on the cars I want to, not the cars I have to.
In reply to Steve :
In September of 2021 I bought a Mazda Mx-5 RF. The reasons have been covered in this thread a bit: I loved the car, I wanted to support Mazda, it was replacing my only other brand-new car (a 2007 Mazda Rx-8) after 14 years of service. The other big thing that was in my situation that I didn't see covered is that I'm at a point in my career that I'm trying to build a business. Any time spent working on a daily driver is time I'm not spending building the company.
On the financials, what I wanted was a >=2019 RF because of the revised engine and suspension, which meant that at the time, a used car was only ~$1500 different total lifetime ownership than a brand new one due to lower interest rate and Mazda S-Plan pricing, and it would have 0 miles instead of 20-40k.
For my particular deal, I used the Mazda S-Plan pricing since I'm an SCCA member. That means the list price on the car I wanted (Deep Crystal Blue paint with Napa White Leather in a Grand Touring package) was ~29,500 if I recall. Tax/Title/Tags brought the out-the door price to $34,600 if I recall correctly? I went with a 5 year-ish loan because that's where the interest rate break was at 2.2% I believe. Long story long, with a few grand down payment the monthly payout is $550/mo, paying it off two months early.
Now, if you run the numbers, the total cost of purchase counting the interest rate put it squarely in the mid $38k. After workin' me arse off for the past 20 years, I do have that much available in savings, however, it's earning way more in my index fund on average than 2.2%, which means I'd be losing money to purchase a car instead of leaving it in the market. Yes, it cost an additional $3k over the life of the loan than spending it outright, but paying that $3k should make me at least $6-9k.
The ancillaries are that insurance was less for that car than for my Rx-8 & beater miata that I sold once I got this.
Besides the fact that it's an amazing car that I absolutely love, I've been able to focus way more on building my business, and not having to worry if my car will get me to the customers site when I need to be onsite.
I also get to spend my (very limited) free time maintaining my track miata and being at the racetrack, which is where I really want to be, not swapping a steering rack in the minivan or whatever needed done to the 27 year old beater miata to keep it running.
I'm not going to argue that it's the cheapest option by any means, but I can hopefully get any time not spent in the garage working on dailies to pay me back many-fold over the life of my buisness.
The bus company I work for buys all new big buses. Then sells them off at 5 years. And buys new ones again.
It's about costs. Nothing else.
The small buses are kept until they are 10 years old and then sold to churches or retirement homes etc. Same thing. Pure costs.
Over 3 generations this has proved the most cost effective way to own buses.
Looking at the companies that buy our 5 year old buses, their drivers earn less than we do. Our owners are comfortable income wise.
The bot is recommending buying a new mustang for your soon-to-be-born child because they will definitely be safe in the back seat.....
Oh, one thing I sure don't miss is "frenchy math".
In reply to Steve :
I knew my wife really wanted a Wrangler, and when I looked at late-model options with the features she needed it was nearly as expensive as new. I ordered a new one that came precisely as she wanted it, with her NAME on the window sticker. She will likely have it 10+ years, well worth it to me. Plus: she cried when we picked it up. I couldn't put a price on that.
After watching this video, I thought about it for about a week, called a dealer 500 miles away and arranged to buy a Misano Blue Giulia Quadrifoglio sight unseen.
Top Gear Alfa Romeo Giulia Quadrifoglio Review
Six years later I haven't regretted it one bit. In fact two years later we bought my wife a new Stelvio. Sadly I couldn't convince her to get the Stelvio Quadrifoglio. 
Despite their reputation, after a combined 8 years of ownership the only issue we have had was a bad relay in the AC system.
New cars are awesome, if someone else buys them.
Buying a couple year old car with a few ten thousand miles on it is a great value. I tip my hat to all of you who supply me with my late model used cars at thousands off MSRP.
ddavidv said:New cars are awesome, if someone else buys them.
Buying a couple year old car with a few ten thousand miles on it is a great value. I tip my hat to all of you who supply me with my late model used cars at thousands off MSRP.
These days, I find that these "lightly used cars" are not really as good of a value as they once were unless you specifically look for a specific model and get lucky like I did with my 2020 A6. That may be changing soon though, I hope.
In reply to ddavidv :
I buy the new ones for thousands off of MSRP, so you might not be getting as much of a deal as you think. There are plenty of vehicles where used is close to new, especially in the last few years.
ddavidv said:New cars are awesome, if someone else buys them.
Buying a couple year old car with a few ten thousand miles on it is a great value. I tip my hat to all of you who supply me with my late model used cars at thousands off MSRP.
I think it would be interesting to see someone with more time and data than me to compare buying new versus over the course of multiple vehicles.
If looking at both the case of keeping a car until it reaches a certain age, and keeping a car a set number of years, I wonder if the ownership costs (purchase, taxes, maintenance, repairs, and resale) balances out over time? Especially for the average owner that will have a shop do the work vs this group which is more hands on.
I also wonder if there is a sweet spot for age/mileage to turn over a vehicle to minimize the long term costs over multiple vehicles.
My gut says the difference is smaller than people assume because of the ownership costs and residual value don't get taken into account when we just look at purchase price. For example a lightly used vehicle will be lower cost, but will need tires, brakes, and other repairs potentially 1-3 years sooner than new depending on the use case and mileage at purchase. That could be the difference between an extra set of tires and brakes over the same duration of ownership. Probably not expensive enough to offset the price difference, but definitely not low enough to ignore in comparing long term costs (especially if done at a shop).
Steve_Jones said:In reply to ddavidv :
I buy the new ones for thousands off of MSRP, so you might not be getting as much of a deal as you think. There are plenty of vehicles where used is close to new, especially in the last few years.
What approach/method are you using to get that discount? Just traditional haggling/negotiating or what?
In my case, the model had just recently been redesigned and I didn't like the newer version, so no discount would have mattered. But I understand that's not the debate.
$2000 saved is $2000 saved (just using a random number). If new OTD price is $30,000 and I can buy a 2 year old one for $28,000 OTD (and I'd certainly want to do better than that) I've still saved $2000. In theory, I've "lost" 2 years of use at that price. But does it really matter? I guess the tires are going to need replacement sooner. Everything else still under factory warranty.
BTW, before anyone argues interest rates being better on new vs used that didn't fly this time when we checked with our CU. And since we bought a high demand brand, there were no fantastic dealer incentives to make new more appealing.
This is a case of "you do you". I've just never succumbed to the new car smell tax and still see no reason to do so. When you've spent much of your life buying and driving cars with 100,000 miles on them a 34,000 mile car pretty much is a 'new' car.
P3PPY said:Steve_Jones said:In reply to ddavidv :
I buy the new ones for thousands off of MSRP, so you might not be getting as much of a deal as you think. There are plenty of vehicles where used is close to new, especially in the last few years.
What approach/method are you using to get that discount? Just traditional haggling/negotiating or what?
You'd be surprised what you can get by just asking and being polite. If you see it as a "fight" and need to "win" every dollar, you'll never be satisfied with any deal. The last few years has been an anomaly, but I've managed to still get pricing I'm ok with. I just bought a 2024 4Runner TRD Pro in the limited color last week. Sticker is $58k, most places are getting 10 over, I paid $55,500. I'll drive it for 3 years and get $52-$53k, so why buy new? I got that deal because it's the 7th runner I've bought from the guy. My 2021 was traded back for $1200 less than I bought it for and was gone in a day. The guy that bought it paid more for it used than I did new, but just like now, in 2021 most were sold for $10k over so he still "saved" something.
some people buy used some people buy new. Neither way is more right than the other. It's just a different way of looking at things. I have not bought tires or paid for an oil change in at least 20 years on my regular cars, so if you throw that to the mix, the money return shrinks even more.
RyanGreener (Forum Supporter) said:ddavidv said:New cars are awesome, if someone else buys them.
Buying a couple year old car with a few ten thousand miles on it is a great value. I tip my hat to all of you who supply me with my late model used cars at thousands off MSRP.
These days, I find that these "lightly used cars" are not really as good of a value as they once were unless you specifically look for a specific model and get lucky like I did with my 2020 A6. That may be changing soon though, I hope.
that was the problem in '23 when we bought new. The 1-2 yo lightly used with half warranty was literally the same cost as new.
I've only owned two new vehicles. Bought a CX5 when they first came out after our well-used Highlander lunched it's transmission, stranding my young family in bitter cold while I was away at work. (Out of the countless cars I've owned, this even was the only failure that left us walking.) When Kid 3 arrived, we bought a new Sienna. In both cases, I knew these cars were going to be around for the long-haul and didn't mind buying new.
Drove the CX5 to 115k with zero issues. The Sienna is now at 130k with no issues. So warranty coverage hasn't been a consideration. The CX5 was a brand new model, so used wasn't an option. Toyotas don't depreciate. I literally bought a new one for $8k less than the local dealers were wanting for the exact van a year or two old.
Once kid hauling duty ramps down, I'll probably buy a higher end used vehicle to replace the van. Luxury marques eat that depreciation like nothing else.
My Dad has always bought a new car, then driven it until parts literally start falling off of it. Seems logical to me.
I've bought three new cars since 1989, drove the first two about 15 years each. The 2019 Mazda CX-9 is still basically new. I've bought used cars here and there, for the kids, for amusement, or as a spare car. But the daily drivers, they're always going to be purchased new. If you divide the cost of ownership (purchase price plus repair cost) over 15 years, new versus used, I doubt you'll find a significant difference. But even if you do, make mine new.
Steve_Jones said:You'd be surprised what you can get by just asking and being polite. If you see it as a "fight" and need to "win" every dollar, you'll never be satisfied with any deal.
Agreed. Of the 8 cars I've bought new, I only paid MSRP once. None of those were a result of a hard-fought bargaining session, it was a mixture of "no haggle" pricing programs and simply walking into a dealer looking for a car that wasn't in particularly high demand.
I think I missed this the 1st time around, but I'll bite.
We tend to buy new when it comes to daily drivers. Having a warranty (at least for a while) is nice. I have no issues buying used personally, and we try to hang onto them until the maintenance becomes cost-prohibitive and outweighs the value. What always ends up happening is that once they are paid off, they start needing things, which essentially shakes down to a payment of sorts. Once that payment gets high enough, it's time for a new car.
For example, my last DD, a 2012 Mazda 3, started needing suspension components, A/C work, a radiator, and eventually a transmission and all the related items that come with that. Once that last bit came down, it didn't make sense to drop $3000+ into a car worth just $3000. I cut bait and got into something else.
That said, if the vehicle ends up prematurely going down that path and has a bunch of non-warranty things wrong with it, it's easier to get out of something newer and you'll get more back on trade. An example of this is my old 2009 WRX. It started having showing signs of some major quality issues around 55k miles, and I didn't want to deal with what the future would bring, so it got traded in on something else. I got a very fair trade-in and into a new car that didn't exhibit major issues for long after that.
Another consideration is we put a lot of miles on our cars commuting. If I'm buying something used, and especially at today's rates/prices, I'm already going to be underwater on the thing in no time and closer to that payment/maintenance threshold sooner than I want to be.
We just bought a new Santa Fe, 0% financing. They weren't dealing at all on those.
We comprared it to used; 6% seems to be as good as the banks will do. To get any sort of savings we were end up with a car that had 40,000 miles on it.
Looks like a brand new canoe.
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