What Car? 3row&tow FamilySports Edition

Yeah, I'm not sure I'd recommend pushing the hybrid's towing capacity.  

Goal of:  under 200" LOA and 75" width

Coming in at: 189.2" LOA and 74" width

Dealer sample 2002 with 106k asking $5.9k but made until 2006.  Rated to tow 5,000lb

Nothing about it will feel modern.  Comes with a small 3rd row.  Under powered but stout gearing.   

Reliability:  my 217k mile example is down for trans issue.

Apples to Apples, I more enjoyed pulling tow dolly and Mercury Milan with my overloaded 40k mile minivan than I did with tow dolly and Toyota Avalon with my not overloaded 200k Montero.(with its 5,000lb rating) 

nocones said:

Our 2017 Santa Fe (V6 AWD) has been good in this role.   We have 72k on ours and it hasn't been to the dealer for any unplanned items.  

[...]

Durability of interior materials has been great with the seats showing minimal wear despite kids that do kid stuff.  

I thought it drove way nicer then the pilot/highlander.  It isn't sporty, but the engine sounds nice and everything is linear and actually provides some level of feedback. 

Find a well cared for one and I don't think you can go wrong.  

Thanks for that, nocones!  I'd seen your Santa Fe towing stuff in a couple of threads, and was curious to hear how it was doing.  Thanks for chiming in.

Seems like a lot of efforts to come up with a Suburban.  The Suburban is the bomb and does it all.  It tows, hauls kids and cargo, goes in the snow,  and takes family road trips like a champ.

Just get a Suburban and call it a day.

Hemi Durango?

It's right at 200" long, has 3rd row and tows 6-8k.

I asked the hive a similar question and ended up eyeballing the first-gen Nissan Armadas because the wife doesn't care for 'Burbans.  They are 7" longer and almost 4" wider than your goals though.  With the tow package they have a 9K lb rating and can be found under $10K so there's that.  Everyone I've talked to considers them reliable.

Be sure you consider your tow vehicle's rated payload and not just tow capacity. If you want to pack the whole family inside AND be at your max tongue weight, I suspect many of the FWD-based options you mention will be way over payload.

I'm a fellow NoVA resident (Arlington) and have owned some half-ton trucks, willingly parking them in tight parking decks and all over DC. Just sold my Ram 1500 for a Cayenne Diesel. It won't do the 7-passenger thing but you could potentially find a Q7 TDI that would (while allowing 6600 lbs towing and 660 lbs tongue weight). Although I suspect a $10k Q7 will not be the pinnacle of reliability for you.

Matt B mentioned the first-gen Armada, you should also consider the 2008ish-era Pathfinder. They could be had with a V6 or V8 and were rated to tow a much healthier number than similar-sized competitors IIRC.

The current-gen Durango is another very good choice, it's just a longer-wheelbase WK2 Grand Cherokee and hasn't markedly changed in quite some time. 

I strictly came in here to say DO NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES consider a pathfinder for towing.   It will not end well.  first hand knowledge and pain, here... They're tempting for a reason. 

In reply to golfduke :

duly noted; your feedback is greatly appreciated!

edit:  not that everyone else's isn't.

There are actually very few non-2500 SUV's with substantial Payload capacities.    Most of them can do ~1000lbs of cargo when loaded to max tow/max tongue weight.  Including the almighty Burban.   

Santa Fe's are 1430lb payload for AWD V6 so your at 930 lbs payload at max 5K tow, 500 lb hitch.

2015 Q7 TDI are 1650lb payload so they are 980 payload at max 6.6K tow, 660 lb hitch.

2015 Suburban 4WD has a 1650 payload so you are at 850 payload at max 8K tow, 800 lb hitch.  

2010 Suburban 1500 4WD has a 1564 payload so you are at  764 payload at max 7.9K tow, 790 lb hitch.

2010 Suburban 2500 4WD has a 2153 payload so you are at 1223 payload at max 9.3K  tow, 930 lb hitch.  

Obviously you can exceed these, and a Suburban will possibly cope with being chronically overloaded better then a Unibody SUV would.   That doesn't make exceeding GVWR/Payload any more legal just because you've done it successfully.  

Notes for above:  Assume 10% tongue weight.  Data is from various manufacutres websites/Chevy towing guides.  There may be special options packages that increase payload beyond these numbers.  

Going by the owners manual, the Ridgeline is rated at its 5k tow rating with no passengers or load. With 4 passengers the tow rating drops to 2500 pounds. I would guess tha the Pilot is the same. 

In reply to Toyman01 + Sized and :

Maybe some of them do, but I just looked at the 2014 Ridgeline owners manual and it drops the Towing capacity to 4500lbs for 5 occupants of 150lbs+15lbs of additional cargo each (825 Lbs total Payload).  The GVWR for the Ridgeline is 6050 lbs and the GCWR is 10088lbs.  So yes for the Ridgeline you cannot do both 100% payload and 100% trailer load.  Your limited if you are at GVWR (full 1520 lbs payload) to a 4030 lbs trailer.  So if you had a 5000lb/500lb tongue trailer with a Ridgeline you would be able to only have ~600lbs additional in the car.  

Comparing it to the 2012 Avalanche which has a 7000lb GVWR, 14,000 GCWR and a 1326 lb Payload it's not atypical to have that kind of limit (GCWR limiting your actual towing capacity).   The Av cannot tow 8100lbs when loaded at it's GVWR.  It can only tow 7000lbs, and at that configuration it can only have 620 bs of payload.  To tow 8100lbs you have to limit the payload to 225lbs..  TOTAL.  And that's for the Special HD tow package Avalanche.  

I realize there were 2500 Avalanches available.  The 2012 is the only one I could readily find the owners manual.

Toyman01 + Sized and said:

Going by the owners manual, the Ridgeline is rated at its 5k tow rating with no passengers or load. With 4 passengers the tow rating drops to 2500 pounds. I would guess tha the Pilot is the same. 

This one says 4750#s for 3 or 4 passengers... assuming they are 150#s with 15#s of bags each

so, one question I have to ask... since I have very limited experience with a tow-dolly.  and even more limited experience towing... so, I do sincerely appreciate y'all breaking out the numbers.  If you drop a 3400# car on a dolly, how is that going to translate into tongue weight?  Is that a function of the design of the dolly, that it'll end up getting 10% of the car weight on the tongue.  or, is it more like 10% of the front-half weight of the car that gets transferred to the hitch?  or, other?

Tow Dolly's are unique and generally have fairly low tongue weight.  because they have 4 wheels spread out the stability is pretty high inherently.  Looking online it looks like they are designed for ~10% of the weight of the axle loaded on the dolly + ~50lbs for the weight of the actual Dolly.  So your example I would expect ~225-250lb tongue weight and a total weight of about 4100lbs.   

Also having busted out a bunch of numbers, I would not recommend towing at any vehicles rated capacity.  I would try to keep at ~80% of the rated.  I've towed 4500 behind the Santa Fe and it's fine but it's much happier at 3500-4000lbs.  When searching for a Tow Vehicle I would take whatever your realistic typical towing load is (Gross weight and Tongue weight) and find a vehicle that is rated to 125% of those (Results in 80% of the Rated load).   Then be mindful of the Payload capacity to ensure you are comfortable with the remaining capacity for your vehicle. 

sleepyhead the buffalo said:

Toyman01 + Sized and said:

Going by the owners manual, the Ridgeline is rated at its 5k tow rating with no passengers or load. With 4 passengers the tow rating drops to 2500 pounds. I would guess tha the Pilot is the same. 

This one says 4750#s for 3 or 4 passengers... assuming they are 150#s with 15#s of bags each

My son was reading mine and I was going by what he said. I'll have to dig it out and check it again. 

Edit: I went out and checked it. I was wrong. It's says only 2000 pounds with 5 people. 

I did a little digging on this. Apparently, the owners' manuals that shipped with a lot of the 06 Ridgelines was a preliminary version. At some point Honda updated them and reprinted the manual for the later trucks. One of the things that changed was the tow ratings. 

In reply to Toyman01 + Sized and :

I mean, I can very much see the decision tree that lead to those conservative a ratings initially... between the Honda 'All Your Transmissions are Explode For Us', and being one the first larger unibody trucks on the market (?).  I'm glad 'we' managed to 'find' you an 'extra' ~2500#s of towing capacity

more realistically, I'm glad we could figure out the discrepancy.  And the discussion has given me more numbers to try and go find and play around with... which, gives me fun things to procrastinate with while I sit in an empty house that's not mine with two restless kids who made poor decisions about what toys to have on-hand for the next month.

nocones said:

Tow Dolly's are unique and generally have fairly low tongue weight.  because they have 4 wheels spread out the stability is pretty high inherently.  Looking online it looks like they are designed for ~10% of the weight of the axle loaded on the dolly + ~50lbs for the weight of the actual Dolly.  So your example I would expect ~225-250lb tongue weight and a total weight of about 4100lbs.  

Also having busted out a bunch of numbers, I would not recommend towing at any vehicles rated capacity.  I would try to keep at ~80% of the rated.  I've towed 4500 behind the Santa Fe and it's fine but it's much happier at 3500-4000lbs.  When searching for a Tow Vehicle I would take whatever your realistic typical towing load is (Gross weight and Tongue weight) and find a vehicle that is rated to 125% of those (Results in 80% of the Rated load).   Then be mindful of the Payload capacity to ensure you are comfortable with the remaining capacity for your vehicle.

most of the dolly's I've been looking at are in the $350-450# range.  I realize uhaul's dolly's are closer to 750#, but the use case for this I think precludes having to deal with that.  I'm confident I can figure out a couple of ways to store a dolly about our place; much less so a 'fullsize' vehicle trailer.  So, that means that I expect my towed-load to be in the 3750-3850#s range.  Which I'd guess would mean a vehicle with a tow rating in the 4400-5000# range would be ok with the load.

As for payload.  I/we see these use-cases separately.  There might be 6 people in the car, and maybe even with luggage... but it won't be pulling a car in that case.  Our normal 'people load' of 4 is currently at ~400#s.  I don't know today, since my scale got packed up in a box inside another box about to be put in a ship... but I'd guess our luggage for living out of the next month is ~300#s.  And three years ago I did a 4-day weekend with the two sleepykids with this load out:

I reckon we could do a 'week at Grandma' for 150#s of luggage; and then if we're 6-up while down there... it'll be without much extra weight.

unfortunately, my "track gear" is tucked away where I can't get a read on how heavy it is, probably until I have to decide/buy this car.  I'd guess that gear is 250#s tops?  I'd guess that probably ends up being the 'worse case scenario': The four of us down to grandma's, hauling the TL so we don't have to drive two cars... so 3850#s towed and ~800#s in the tow car?  Based on your math, that still seems possible.  Even the Highlander, with tow package... we'd be below the 20% towed-'safety-factor', and with the say, ~300# tongue weight... the 'gvwr' = 4255+800+300 = 5355#s out of 6000#s max  (I can't find a GCWR for the Highlander, off-hand).    Assuming, I'm doing that math right.

I'll have to dig into the Q7 a bit more, though, to figure things on it.  It's owner's manual had some... interesting language to decode first.

writing that out, and thinking about it for a spell... I wonder if the "3-row"/6-people requirement is the least beneficial to the specs, and easiest thing to drop from them?   But, I'm also not sure that eliminating it means there are other options in 2-rows that have 4400#+ towing capacity.

In reply to sleepyhead the buffalo :

The vestigial 3 row gets used a fair amount with our 4 person family.  Grandparents/friends/cousins riding along on short trips, sometimes the kids sit in the back because they are kids and do goofy things.  If we needed to use the 3rd row everyday we would have a minivan.  

It sounds like your tow plan will be meet by any of the 5K rated 3 rows.  For anything just look at actual GVWR/GCWR/and Dry weight and make sure you can haul the Cargo + drag the trailer around that you need/want.  

I almost never haul a car with the family.  In fact I don't think it has happened once in my history.  Generally when I'm doing car shenanigans it's a solo trip.  I've had another person along but never 3 or 4 total occupants.  

For 2 row the Jeep Grand Cherokee makes a pretty strong case for a used vehicle.  Good towing/payload but not so great gas mileage.   Many people like the Tourag/Cayanne for 2 row towing as well.  I'd be terrified of the potential repair costs but I've not done actual research into their reliability.   BMW X5 and the Lexus equivalent are decent also.  

All of these are going to struggle on MPG but being luxury vehicles they will strangely be better values used.  

Brake_L8 (Forum Supporter) said:

Be sure you consider your tow vehicle's rated payload and not just tow capacity. If you want to pack the whole family inside AND be at your max tongue weight, I suspect many of the FWD-based options you mention will be way over payload.

I'm a fellow NoVA resident (Arlington) and have owned some half-ton trucks, willingly parking them in tight parking decks and all over DC. Just sold my Ram 1500 for a Cayenne Diesel. It won't do the 7-passenger thing but you could potentially find a Q7 TDI that would (while allowing 6600 lbs towing and 660 lbs tongue weight). Although I suspect a $10k Q7 will not be the pinnacle of reliability for you.

Matt B mentioned the first-gen Armada, you should also consider the 2008ish-era Pathfinder. They could be had with a V6 or V8 and were rated to tow a much healthier number than similar-sized competitors IIRC.

The current-gen Durango is another very good choice, it's just a longer-wheelbase WK2 Grand Cherokee and hasn't markedly changed in quite some time. 

The GRM cayenne diesel club is growing fast! They're compelling options, I just added BlueSpark to mine and it's helped a bit with mpg and torque.

I replaced our 2008 Nissan Pathfinder V8 with it, also a great towing vehicle but the Cayenne is light years ahead in nearly every category.

nocones said:

In reply to sleepyhead the buffalo :

For 2 row the Jeep Grand Cherokee makes a pretty strong case for a used vehicle.  Good towing/payload but not so great gas mileage.   Many people like the Tourag/Cayanne for 2 row towing as well.  I'd be terrified of the potential repair costs but I've not done actual research into their reliability.   BMW X5 and the Lexus equivalent are decent also.  

All of these are going to struggle on MPG but being luxury vehicles they will strangely be better values used.  

If Grand Cherokee is a good answer for 2 row, does the similar, previously mentioned, Dodge Durango become a good answer for 3 row?  

John Welsh said:

If Grand Cherokee is a good answer for 2 row, does the similar, previously mentioned, Dodge Durango become a good answer for 3 row?  

so... I've seen some comments of Daylan's... who has successfully towed a miata on a heavy dual-axle trailer, through the mountains of Kentucky, with a V6 Durango (iirc).  But I've also seen some comments from Daylan complain about what a pain it is to work on, especially with stupid random stuff breaking.   your/my mileage may very?  maybe that one just had issues

Ford Flex had a 4500lb towing limit with the 3.5 and tow package and it moves. Love mine.