What engine: Fiat X1/9 edition

Aw man! Don't put something not-Italian in an Italian!

If the Fiat twin-cam is even kind of an option then you should pursue it like King Arthur and the Holy Grail!

The twin cam is a great power plant, comes in many different sizes with many different induction options, and could probably be had dirt cheap. There was an Alfa SPICA injected example just a couple blocks from my house on craigslist for $200. Slap a Weber or two on aaaaaand Profit!

** edit to the first line: unless that non-italian option is a wankel. Only then may you proceed with my blessing.

Cheers!

2ZZ Bro, dont know if LSD available or what time of engine management to run.

Also D series is awesome, and I love them.

Quad 4, probably simple since they are old, but some made 180-190hp. Put a timing chain on it though.

2.5 MZR, with 2.0 head or 2.5 whatever.

3.8 Supercharged GM V6.

Mazda KL.

In reply to Opti:

Any Toyota ZZ wouldn't be bad, I kinda sorta blame buying a Prizm with one on losing interest in my Yugo. The gearbox they come with is an ancient design so I'm sure LSD is available.

VR6 ... that is all

What about the powerplant from a new abarth?

If it's for the racetrack, how about a ZX14 motor? 1.4lL, 192hp at the wheels, traction control and 11,000 rpms

http://www.cycleworld.com/2012/03/07/kawasaki-zx-14r-road-test/

I would use a MOPAR power plant. To keep it SCCA legal, That way you can win nationals as SMU!

I once published a series of articles in the Fiat club magazine about a guy who put a DOHC Fiat engine in an X1/9. It was a lot of work. A. Lot. Of. Work. Unfortunately, by modern standards the power output of the Fiat 124/131 engine isn't going to make all the effort worthwhile.

One of the mechanics at the ex-Fiat dealership I worked at built a turbo X1/9 1500 5 speed. Using a FI car to start made this pretty easy. It had a Subaru 1.8 turbo (spooled up really quick), a Saab intercooler and ran like stink. The power delivery was wonderfully linear and matched the car's handling capabilities (stock suspension) perfectly. I wrote an article about it for European Car many years ago but can provide the OP with a copy if he's interested.

Keeping the thing all-Fiat or all-Italian is a nice sentiment, but frankly I'd swap in whatever fits easily and provides the best power for the buck.

Hungary Bill wrote: Aw man! Don't put something not-Italian in an Italian! If the Fiat twin-cam is even kind of an option then you should pursue it like King Arthur and the Holy Grail! The twin cam is a great power plant, comes in many different sizes with many different induction options, and could probably be had dirt cheap. There was an Alfa SPICA injected example just a couple blocks from my house on craigslist for $200. Slap a Weber or two on aaaaaand Profit! ** edit to the first line: unless that non-italian option is a wankel. Only then may you proceed with my blessing. Cheers!

If you are going to consider an Alfa motor, I would more suggest a 2.0l TS motor from a 164- you would have to import it from Europe, but you can get the entire powertrain.

We'd considered this idea for a GRM challenge at one point.

If lots of cutting is allowed, do a jr stratos, and just drop whole v6 powertrain from a 164 in there. That would have some very nice grunt, particularly for the weight.

if I were going through the trouble to source an Alfa engine.. I would go to back to fiat/lancia and grab one of the 16v engines out of anything from the Punto up to the Delta. Some of them even came boosted. The block is based on the 132 engines used in the Fiat 124 and Lancia beta, but with counterrotating balance shafts

How about a boosted Ecotec from a SAAB?

ddavidv wrote: I once published a series of articles in the Fiat club magazine about a guy who put a DOHC Fiat engine in an X1/9. It was a lot of work. A. Lot. Of. Work. Unfortunately, by modern standards the power output of the Fiat 124/131 engine isn't going to make all the effort worthwhile. One of the mechanics at the ex-Fiat dealership I worked at built a turbo X1/9 1500 5 speed. Using a FI car to start made this pretty easy. It had a Subaru 1.8 turbo (spooled up really quick), a Saab intercooler and ran like stink. The power delivery was wonderfully linear and matched the car's handling capabilities (stock suspension) perfectly. I wrote an article about it for European Car many years ago but can provide the OP with a copy if he's interested. Keeping the thing all-Fiat or all-Italian is a nice sentiment, but frankly I'd swap in whatever fits easily and provides the best power for the buck.

You summarized this whole thread beautifully. I love the suggestions of twin cam Lancias and Fiats, but this option would easily cost double and take 2-3 times as much work. Coming from someone 3/4 of the way through a 2 year engine build, I'm very attracted by the idea of buying something that makes the power I want right off the pallet. No tuning, no tweaking, just fabricate the motor mounts, wire the stock ECU up to the new host and then profit. Plus, I can hoon on a Honda/Dodge/Toyota engine and transmission without fear of breaking something rare and or special that is a pain to replace. ddavidv, I'd love to see the article you wrote.

Opti, thanks for the suggestion on the 2ZZ-GE. Great engine and meets my criteria. From my research it looks fairly light too? The layout (intake front, exhaust rear) looks like it would fit the engine bay perfectly. Even the motor mounts are close to the exxie's. My hesitation on this engine is that it is in a state of high-tune right from the factory and adding power down the road is a little more difficult. At least from the 25 minutes I spent reading up on them last night. Bonus points for making my x1/9 into an Italian Elise.

MadScientistMatt and Vigo, thanks for the Neon motor suggestion. Vigo, I wasn't aware that they came both ways for intake/exhaust layout. That is major points right there, because it would simplify things nicely for packaging and layout. I've got some homework to do for this option. Down side is that it sounds like this would be more of a design/build/tune option to get the power I want. I'm not ruling it out.

A few people said that the K20 should be readily available, and while that is true, the engines that are most common and available cheaply are the ~160HP versions.

Thanks again to everyone for all the great input! I really appreciate it!

GVX19 wrote: I would use a MOPAR power plant. To keep it SCCA legal, That way you can win nationals as SMU!

Would it be legal? They had no ties with chrysler until recently.

I would still go fiat twin cam. A Turbo version was even sold in the US so if you can't make a custom turbo setup and have to use stock you still have a boost option (don't know scca rules).

They sound awesome too and theres about 100 different versions to choose from.

Can probably find a 16v turbo version front clip from a Fiat Coupe overseas if you wanted fairly easily.

Biggest advantage of the Neon/Chrysler FWD swap is that you can reuse the stock axles with Chrysler inboard CV's. Getting custom axles made has been a major stumbling block for a lot of builds as most people can whack up mounts, wiring and plumbing using bare skins and bone knives aka blood, sweat and tears.

Plus with fiat and Chrysler joined at the hip means that you might be able to compete in a decent class with a street able swapped car.

I messed with the older style 2.2 SOHC on my project and the frame needed to be notched to clear the larger transaxle and the water pump. The Neon 2.0 is more compact and the SOHC makes nearly as much power as the DOHC and are stupidly cheap and reliable. Later cars even used a hydraulic throw out bearing making it that much easier to adapt. Electronics aren't too bad since MegaSquirt is a known quantity on the 2.0 and 2.4L power plants.

That said there is mount kit available to swap in a Honda power plant, but axles and everything else will still need to be made/modified, etc.

turboswede wrote: Biggest advantage of the Neon/Chrysler FWD swap is that you can reuse the stock axles with Chrysler inboard CV's. Getting custom axles made has been a major stumbling block for a lot of builds as most people can whack up mounts, wiring and plumbing using bare skins and bone knives aka blood, sweat and tears. Plus with fiat and Chrysler joined at the hip means that you might be able to compete in a decent class with a street able swapped car. I messed with the older style 2.2 SOHC on my project and the frame needed to be notched to clear the larger transaxle and the water pump. The Neon 2.0 is more compact and the SOHC makes nearly as much power as the DOHC and are stupidly cheap and reliable. Later cars even used a hydraulic throw out bearing making it that much easier to adapt. Electronics aren't too bad since MegaSquirt is a known quantity on the 2.0 and 2.4L power plants. That said there is mount kit available to swap in a Honda power plant, but axles and everything else will still need to be made/modified, etc.

Ever looked at what they're asking for the K20 swap kit? Nearly $4 grand. I expect it to come with a motor at that price. And maybe some other...services.

The company that makes it is very active in the X1/9 community, and I don't want to sound like I am bad-mouthing them. But $4k is really, really steep. $4k for the kit, $5k for the motor, and as linked elsewhere in this thread you wind up with a car you might get $9k for. Never mind the work that went into the rest of the car.

I'm not building this to sell, but as someone else said in this thread, I can get a lot done for a lot less $.

So if I were to build a 2.0, with a HP target of 180 with the widest power band possible, would you suggest starting SOHC or DOHC?

kanaric wrote: Can probably find a 16v turbo version front clip from a Fiat Coupe overseas if you wanted fairly easily.

probably not.. most of them ended their lives running into things. I don't think the coupe' had the best brakes around or they were nose heavy, but most of the dead ones have crushed noses.

So if I were to build a 2.0, with a HP target of 180 with the widest power band possible, would you suggest starting SOHC or DOHC?

Start with a DOHC. Sohcs are easy to get mild power increases from, but the exhaust ports are more limited, the stock intake manifold is not as happy at 7000+rpm, and cam tuning is more limited both in cam selection and by the fact that that the intake and exhaust profiles cant be moved independently. It takes more work to make a 180chp sohc than dohc, and i dont think the reliability issue is a big deal either way.

A 180chp DOHC 2.0 can be done with fairly basic hard parts. I would think a bigger throttle body, header, cams, and valvesprings alone would do it as far as the engine goes. Everything else would be in the tuning.

turboswede wrote: That said there is mount kit available to swap in a Honda power plant, but axles and everything else will still need to be made/modified, etc.

Huh. I'm surprised that they aren't available. Visiting previously mentioned friend's place of work, I saw a LARGE stack of K20 inner to Fiat outer axle sticks...

In reply to Knurled: the kit from Midwest Bayless does include axles. Just sticks though- no inners or outers. (nearly) $4,000.00. It just blows my mind.

In reply to Vigo:

Remember, this is a sub-2000lb short wheelbase, mid engined car with severely limited tire sizes. Seriously, without severe body hacking you'd be hard pressed to get very much more than a 205-width tire under the rear. Obviously flares are available, but pricey and tricky to fit.

So a stock 140hp SOHC would be much better than the 90 hp 1.5. More than enough to be a ton of fun and would fit better in the tiny engine bay. A DOHC would also fit just fine and at 150+hp it would be a screamer.

It's like people who put V8's in Lotus clones, it ain't always going to be faster when you're well outside the limits of the chassis to put that power down, let alone change it's direction of travel.

Mezzanine wrote: In reply to Knurled: the kit from Midwest Bayless does include axles. Just sticks though- no inners or outers. (nearly) $4,000.00. It just blows my mind.

I can see $4k if the kit is pretty inclusive.

I (heard) what they were charging for Finished Products, and I don't think they were out of line compared to what needed to be done.

I like the quad 4.

$500 http://www.ebay.com/itm/GM-2-3-Quad-4-High-Output-engine-WILL-SHIP-/291182259783?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item43cbd0ae47&vxp=mtr

$360 http://www.ebay.com/itm/94-GRAND-AM-ENGINE-4-138-2-3L-QUAD-OHC-SOHC-VIN-3-1454284-/351124156354?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item51c0a16fc2&vxp=mtr

Id rock the E36 M3 out of a Z26 if I found a cheap beater. Saw a build of one on junkyard turbo, looked stock ran bottom 12s.

Z26 was a Lumina. For the HO version of the Quad 4, you needed a Beretta GTZ (not GTU!) or a Grand Am or a 442. Key was manual transmission, automatic equipped cars had the 160hp lump. The easiest to find was the GTZ, seems Pontiac and Olds dealers tended to not order manual transmission cars.

Buzzy crapboxes and the Beretta interior was especially horrible even by early 90s GM standards. But they had an engine that was similar on paper to the E30 M3, output-wise.

Mezzanine: that turbo X1/9 is still roaming somewhere in the Fiat community on the east coast so far as I know. I can probably scan the article and email it to you. Since the PM's on this message board are unreliable, you can email me at dvandtl at yahoo dott com.

When that cheap MINI was in the classifieds last week, I did some searching for a swap. I came up with the 2.4 N/A Ecotec version (LE5) from the Cobalt SS.

171hp @ 5600rpm, 163 lb ft @ 5000rpm

A later version was a bit up in torque.