Obviously, I come from a generation that remembers that as the “big” Honda engine of the day. But you just don’t see or here about them anymore. Anyone know any famous recent builds?
looks like they run about $1,000-1,200. And make around 200-220hp. This way under cuts any k swap. So what’s the deal this motor? Why isn’t it still a racers go to engine?
I looked at these for my $2018 CRX build.
It looks like the H fell by the way side because 200hp is apparently pretty easy to get with a turbo on either the D or the B. I think they also require new sleeves (instead of a bore-out) on a rebuild because of the material that H used.
The D series is particularly compelling because it has a ton of development knowledge and a good community behind it at this point. Prices are closer to 300 for a swap instead of 1k...but also keep in mind that the D series is standard on the civics that most people are playing with.
If you can get the same HP for 1/3rd of the initial cost while keeping the stock transmission, axels, mounts, firewall, clutch pedals, ECU, wiring by using a D series, lots of people just throw a turbo on the D and send it.
If you're willing to spend 1.5k or more then the K swap is popular. Not as familiar with them because it's above my price range.
The k series coming out.
The H22 in our Prelude went 12 hrs at the last ChampCar race and never skipped a beat, although it did drink some oil. We're fans.
All I know is that the fuel rails are handy for Porsche 924 EFI conversions.
I suspect they were simply overshadowed by the K-series.
I think it is combination of it is easier/ cheaper to do a turbo D or B-series and if you want all motor K-series makes more sense.
K series makes more HP for cheaper NA and turbo B-series is the easy button for honda turbos.
But a stock, NA h23 can put down the same numbers as a boosted D/B. That’s gotta be something for longevity. I know my boosted D put down 188hp. But I feared for its life everyday, mostly because of the then not-so-great chinachargers. But, if I were running any endurance racing, the H might be worth it. I mean, buy in cheap, run till it dies. Then buy another and do the same. Operating costs for a campaigned car should be lower. In theory.
Part of the reason the H-series never took off was that they are physically pretty large. I know that putting one in a CRX or EF Civic requires pounding the E36 M3 out of the framerails with a sledgehammer or severely notching it. They also had not-so-great transmissions that were notorious for bad synchros, and had issues with oil burning. They did have their time in the sun in the '90s when guys like Steph Papadakis and Jeremy Lookofsky were dropping them in drag CRXs and blasting N/A 9s
The F series is pretty tough as well. The non-VTEC F23 in a friend's Accord lived through quite a few years of 10 - 15 psi being stuffed through it. The turbo failed and started puking oil before the engine ever had an issue.
In reply to rslifkin :
Bisi Ezerioha, the mad man behind Bisimoto, swears that the F22 (the SOHC Accord engine, not the S2000 engine) has the best-flowing head of any Honda and had a 9-second, naturally-aspirated F22 Insight
For endurance racing or a track car they're great. They're pretty reliable around stock power. For drag racing or making stupid numbers on a dyno they're not. They are larger/heavier than B/K engines, and the ring lands don't respond well to power adders. I think everyone figuring out ls/b20 blocks with a vtec head is why they're not as popular.
NickD said:Part of the reason the H-series never took off was that they are physically pretty large. I know that putting one in a CRX or EF Civic requires pounding the E36 M3 out of the framerails with a sledgehammer or severely notching it. They also had not-so-great transmissions that were notorious for bad synchros, and had issues with oil burning. They did have their time in the sun in the '90s when guys like Steph Papadakis and Jeremy Lookofsky were dropping them in drag CRXs and blasting N/A 9s
Wouldn't using a B series transmission with an H2B kit address the transmission issues?
In reply to aw614 :
It does. But they are still a big, hefty engine that doesn't respond as well to boost. Didn't these have some sort of issue with timing belt tensioners as well?
EDIT: Yup, the good H22s used a hydraulic auto tensioner that was failure prone, requiring a swap to the H23s manual tensioner or an aftermarket solution.
In reply to NickD :
Yeah, and I was referring to the H series in general. Good to know about the H22 though.
Trackmouse said:Obviously, I come from a generation that remembers that as the “big” Honda engine of the day. But you just don’t see or here about them anymore. Anyone know any famous recent builds?
looks like they run about $1,000-1,200. And make around 200-220hp. This way under cuts any k swap. So what’s the deal this motor? Why isn’t it still a racers go to engine?
Back inna day, I remember one of the racer guys saying they were taking the H22 OUT of their drag car and putting a B18 in, since they were having traction problems in 4th gear and they wanted the drivability of a lower torque engine.
NickD said:Part of the reason the H-series never took off was that they are physically pretty large. I know that putting one in a CRX or EF Civic requires pounding the E36 M3 out of the framerails with a sledgehammer or severely notching it. They also had not-so-great transmissions that were notorious for bad synchros, and had issues with oil burning. They did have their time in the sun in the '90s when guys like Steph Papadakis and Jeremy Lookofsky were dropping them in drag CRXs and blasting N/A 9s
This ^^^
My dad's prelude had the H22 and I loved it, for a while it was the fastest car I had ever driven (I like slow stuff) and we went 192k on the original timing belt... There is some simple boltons to make it 220hp and still get 35mpg. Swaps make it harder because its like the caymen of porsches its a price range not performance problem. in addition to the general size of it. My dads prelude has a bad 5th gear syncro... weirdest thing ever. If you get the type SH you can get the 5 speed with a helical LSD. Syncro's can always be updated later when they fail.
Also, K series aren't that expensive any more. They made an awfull lot of them.
fidelity101 said:NickD said:Part of the reason the H-series never took off was that they are physically pretty large. I know that putting one in a CRX or EF Civic requires pounding the E36 M3 out of the framerails with a sledgehammer or severely notching it. They also had not-so-great transmissions that were notorious for bad synchros, and had issues with oil burning. They did have their time in the sun in the '90s when guys like Steph Papadakis and Jeremy Lookofsky were dropping them in drag CRXs and blasting N/A 9s
This ^^^
My dad's prelude had the H22 and I loved it, for a while it was the fastest car I had ever driven (I like slow stuff) and we went 192k on the original timing belt... There is some simple boltons to make it 220hp and still get 35mpg. Swaps make it harder because its like the caymen of porsches its a price range not performance problem. in addition to the general size of it. My dads prelude has a bad 5th gear syncro... weirdest thing ever. If you get the type SH you can get the 5 speed with a helical LSD. Syncro's can always be updated later when they fail.
I remember some kid trying to trade me a 5th-gen Accord with an F23 and a 5-speed and my question was "Does the transmission grind?" There was a long pause and he goes "Well, it's not a bad grind." I hate that phrase. Wrong, all grinds in a manual transmission are a bad grind. There's no such thing as a "good" grind.
As much as it sounds like I'm anti-H, that's really not the case. I'd love to get a BB6 Prelude, I think they are handsome cars with a big punch, its just that they are still really pricey. I'd also love to build a JTCC-style CB7 Accord with an H22 or an F20B, or a drag-style 2nd-gen Integra with a nitrous H2B setup. But I do get why they aren't as popular as D-, B- and K-series
danneskjold said:I looked at these for my $2018 CRX build.
It looks like the H fell by the way side because 200hp is apparently pretty easy to get with a turbo on either the D or the B. I think they also require new sleeves (instead of a bore-out) on a rebuild because of the material that H used.
The D series is particularly compelling because it has a ton of development knowledge and a good community behind it at this point. Prices are closer to 300 for a swap instead of 1k...but also keep in mind that the D series is standard on the civics that most people are playing with.
If you can get the same HP for 1/3rd of the initial cost while keeping the stock transmission, axels, mounts, firewall, clutch pedals, ECU, wiring by using a D series, lots of people just throw a turbo on the D and send it.
If you're willing to spend 1.5k or more then the K swap is popular. Not as familiar with them because it's above my price range.
You're right about the cylinder liners on the H series blocks. Mahle and Weisco make coated pistons that are supposed to be compatible with the liners, but the coatings wear down and as soon as that happens, your cylinder walls get scraped to hell.
In fact the need to re-sleeve to iron cylinder liners is what's keeping me from turning my H23 powered Prelude into a Super Touring Under car. For that much I could do a K swap, which would give me newer electronics and aftermarket support that's probably better than what H series cars had in their prime.
It's a shame too. If you don't touch the bottom end it's a great motor. There's a lot of power to be unlocked in the head if you have someone who can open up the ports in the head.
Ditto all the stuff that was said. Even if none of those issues bother you its getting hard to find a good one.
If you're in the H-series market, look at a JDM H23 VTEC. Sub-$1k from importers, and a little more HP than an H22.
Its been a while since reading up but IIRC not all of the H's have the weird liner material, and you can hybridize with the F series.
NickD said:In reply to rslifkin :
Bisi Ezerioha, the mad man behind Bisimoto, swears that the F22 (the SOHC Accord engine, not the S2000 engine) has the best-flowing head of any Honda and had a 9-second, naturally-aspirated F22 Insight
Tell me more on how to build a fire breathing f22... For reasons...
I'm a big fan of the h22. I think the main issue is that preludes and accords were never as popular as civics and integras. As stated, the h22 is relatively heavy and doesn't make a whole lot of sense to replace a well built B or D series, but they had a more useable and (in my opinion) more fun torque curve that lent itself well to the chassis in which they were originally installed. I once had a 6th gen accord into which I was seriously considering an h22 swap.
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