Stampie said:
frenchyd said:
In reply to Stampie :
Sorry, I can understand coming from a world of lifters, push rods rocker arms in truck engines the revs of a direct acting Overhead cam short stroke engine must be astonishing for you.
I thought the Article in AJ6 would still be there but it's not.
I'll have to find it elsewhere. I've plenty of resources but it's a slow process
What world are you talking about? You mean my world where my first job out of high school was at an independent Volvo shop? Or where I owned all OHC engines up until 2008? I guess I forgot all that stuff at that point. Also why would you go back and edit a post a day later to say something totally different? Still would love a reference to your "facts" because otherwise you just sound like the kid in elementary school claiming his dad is an astronaut.
If you're too lazy to look yourself, I'm not going to spend a whole lot of time looking for you Stampie. But I'll find it and then you'll make your typical BS argument about how this dictionary says this and that means•••••
Go ahead, Google pictures of Jaguar XKE frames. Then explain again how a mold taken from an XKE doesn't meet the similar requirement.
While you're at it read Egan's Book "Saving Jaguar". Then Tell me again how the Atlas is all Chevy's idea.
Stampie
MegaDork
5/13/22 12:45 p.m.
In reply to frenchyd :
Have you heard the saying "a lie repeated a thousand times becomes the truth"? I get very suspicious when someone repeats the same "fact" over and over when the listeners are very aware that they've already stated said "fact". You repeat things so many times without any back ground references that I question just about everything about you. It's like you're trying to invent this world of you being better than everyone (except the Nelson's) and that the things you like (Jag V12) is superior to what everyone else likes.
Since you have 40 years of professional racing experience shouldn't you know what it takes to raise the power peak? Again I'm not a professional but I know the basics enough to be able to figure that out. Do you ask these questions just to prove your superiority to everyone? Is it the attention that you want? Because if someone contradicts what you want the answer to be you just dismiss them.
You're trying to twist me asking a simple question into me being too lazy to look up your "facts". I went to where you told me to go. It's not there. Did you expect that we'd just take you at your word? You always like to twist things just like above you twisting the Challenge rules to become "facts" that you want. My fear is so many people search the internet for "facts". I'm afraid they'll believe your lies and half truths. So yes I'm going to question you and your "facts" until you can prove that they are the truth. The truth will always win.
So here's reference for you.
https://web.colby.edu/cogblog/2018/04/25/unraveling-the-mechanism-behind-a-lie-repeated-a-thousand-times-becomes-truth-a-cognitive-account/
In fact, lies could be seasoned to come off as more truthful, and the recipe is very simple— repetition. You might have heard the pop wisdom that “a lie that is repeated a thousand times becomes truth” at some point in your life. This actually has a well-founded cognitive basis.
I had some spare time so I google searched as suggested. My search was:
"jaguar" "v12" "8300" "3 hours"
Also:
"jaguar" "v12" "8300" "three hours"
The quotes tell google to only return pages with those words.
Drum roll please .... Google gave me this as an answer:
It looks like there aren't many great matches for your search
When I widen the search up all I get are post from Frenchyd and Mguar (yes that's him) claiming that the engine was tested to valve float at 8300rpm. The tested for three hours seems to be a recent claim.
Slippery said:
yupididit said:
In reply to Slippery :
I ain't reading all that lol
I searched it and nothing 
Frenchy, are you Mguar on the jag forums?
Yes, and he used to be mguar on GRM.
Slippery said:
yupididit said:
In reply to Slippery :
I ain't reading all that lol
I searched it and nothing
Frenchy, are you Mguar on the jag forums?
Yes he's Mguar on the Jag forums. His post are entertaining as hell lol
Stampie said:
In reply to frenchyd :
Have you heard the saying "a lie repeated a thousand times becomes the truth"? I get very suspicious when someone repeats the same "fact" over and over when the listeners are very aware that they've already stated said "fact". You repeat things so many times without any back ground references that I question just about everything about you. It's like you're trying to invent this world of you being better than everyone (except the Nelson's) and that the things you like (Jag V12) is superior to what everyone else likes.
Since you have 40 years of professional racing experience shouldn't you know what it takes to raise the power peak? Again I'm not a professional but I know the basics enough to be able to figure that out. Do you ask these questions just to prove your superiority to everyone? Is it the attention that you want? Because if someone contradicts what you want the answer to be you just dismiss them.
You're trying to twist me asking a simple question into me being too lazy to look up your "facts". I went to where you told me to go. It's not there. Did you expect that we'd just take you at your word? You always like to twist things just like above you twisting the Challenge rules to become "facts" that you want. My fear is so many people search the internet for "facts". I'm afraid they'll believe your lies and half truths. So yes I'm going to question you and your "facts" until you can prove that they are the truth. The truth will always win.
So here's reference for you.
https://web.colby.edu/cogblog/2018/04/25/unraveling-the-mechanism-behind-a-lie-repeated-a-thousand-times-becomes-truth-a-cognitive-account/
In fact, lies could be seasoned to come off as more truthful, and the recipe is very simple— repetition. You might have heard the pop wisdom that “a lie that is repeated a thousand times becomes truth” at some point in your life. This actually has a well-founded cognitive basis.
You're really good at twisting things around Stampie.
I've already said you are better at computer than I am.
Please go back and re read: I said Google XKE frames. To be fair I forgot say pictures of Jaguar XKE Frames. You will see pictures of factory built XKE's tubular frames.
You have yet to satisfactory explain how a mold taken from a stock XKE body doesn't meet the requirement of similar to the original according to the Challenge rules. Go back and reread your own posting if you are confused.
With regard to the origins of the Atlas motor. I gave you the source. John Egan was the CEO of Jaguar at the time his book Saving Jaguar explains that. Or you can look at the facts. When was the last time GM made an in line Six? Jaguar introduced theirs in 1986 ( I'll check that to make sure).( oops I was wrong, 1984 ). While GM introduced theirs in 2002 after trying to buy Jaguar. Back in 1988 and losing to Ford.
As for your made up allegation I do not say that Jaguar is the best car. I have always said it's the best value for a race car. ( side note; Jaguar won a NASCAR race before Chevy did).
My reason has been clear. Based on what you get for what it costs. While cast crankshafts are fine on the street. Forgings are required to survive racing on the tracks. OHC is better in racing than pushrods. And complex EGO cars depreciate like a rock while daily driver cars retain their marketability.
If you want to road race your Chevy , most ( or all) of the engine must be replaced. While virtually none of a Jaguar engine needs that.
Finally; I will find the source for the 8300 RPM testing. But unlike you I don't rely on the internet for most things. I have many bookshelf's filled with Jaguar books. It takes time.
Time I don't have a lot of. For example this last posting has been done when I'm waiting for passengers. Tonight we need to get ready for my wife's mother's funeral tomorrow.
Sunday we are removing things from her house and getting it ready to be put on the market. I'll grab a book and scan through it.
When I find it I'll expect a whole hearted apology for calling me a liar. Not your typical evasion.
In reply to frenchyd :
The Atlas was GM's idea. No, they did not steal or acquire it from Jaguars i6. You have never ever provided any evidence for what you claim. I've searched and read too. The only thing I've found are your post and a few others who state the likeness between the two engines.
Keith Tanner said:
Slippery said:
yupididit said:
In reply to Slippery :
I ain't reading all that lol
I searched it and nothing
Frenchy, are you Mguar on the jag forums?
Yes, and he used to be mguar on GRM.
And was banned as mguar...
I race my Kia and I haven't had to replace any of my engine. Just for the record.
In reply to yupididit :
I'll repeat. When was the last time GM built an in line engine? I'm guessing sometime in the 60's?
In the 1980's GM was interested in buying Jaguar. They had a team doing Due Diligence in the later 80's. And talks were going on then. For exact details read the book Saving Jaguar by John Egan ( the then CEO ) Ford swooped in and beat any offer GM was going to put on the table.
Jaguar introduced their in line six in 1984
GM introduced their Atlas engine in 2002
bobzilla said:
Javelin said:
Keith Tanner said:
Slippery said:
yupididit said:
In reply to Slippery :
I ain't reading all that lol
I searched it and nothing
Frenchy, are you Mguar on the jag forums?
Yes, and he used to be mguar on GRM.
And was banned as mguar...
here or there?
That sounds bad. Why don't you tell why I was given a 30 day suspension?
Hint; language.
In reply to frenchyd :
Okay so, because GM (one of the biggest auto manufacturers on the planet) hasn't made an i6 in a few decades that means they had to copy Jaguars in order to make one? That proves they copied the Jag 4.2?
Further evidence being that GM wanted to buy Jaguar therefore that means they must've copied Jaguars engines?
And one of the Atlas engines has a displacement of 4.2 so I guess that proves it too huh?
Please provide actual evidence. Not what your brain decided to come up with to justify this claim.
Toyota's 2jz i6 rather similar to Mercedes m103/m104 i6's. Darn, they must've copied it.
In reply to yupididit :
Nope. It's not the 4.2. That's a cast Iron block designed during WW2 while on fire watch. First used in the 1948 Jaguar XK 120.
The one they released in 1984 is all aluminum, 4 valve engine that came in 2.8 (SOHC) 3.6, 4.0, and 4.2 w/VVT EFI
Remember
Jaguar 1984
GM 2002.
And if you'll read the book I mentioned "Saving Jaguar". it will make the connections for you.
or go back and read the trade newspapers where I got my information from originally.
In reply to frenchyd :
Ohhh that solves it. You're right they copied Jaguars i6 into a 4cyl, i5 and i6.
In reply to yupididit :
I'm sorry, no Jaguar never made that engine into a 4-5 cylinder version. That was GM adapting it to their smaller truck line.
As far as the Toyota and Mercedes? I don't know anything about them.
What exactly did GM steal from Jaguar to build the Atlas?
There's nothing particularly unconventional about either engine, and they aren't even that similar other than both being a large-ish displacement inline 6.
Jag has uneven bore spaces, GM are even.
GM has a deep skirt block with girdle-style main caps, Jag is no-skirt with regular caps.
Jag has 2 valves per cylinder, super wide valve angle, offset spark plug, hemi combustion chamber. GM has 4 valves, center plug, much narrower valve angle, pent roof combustion chamber.
These engines are nothing alike. What are you talking about? The GM engine is much closer to a Mercedes, Toyota, or Ford (Barra) than it is anything Jaguar ever made.
Also: I race a stock bottom end (cast crank, cast rods, cast pistons!) from the 70s making 65hp/cyl. Hasn't shattered the crank yet.
In reply to Matthew Kennedy :
First I don't know that there was any stealing going on. Did GM pay for that design in lieu of payment for the Transmission Jaguar bought from GM? Or for the GM paint process Jaguar got from GM? I do know the team doing GM's due diligence prior to the purchase felt the engine was the only thing of real valve Jaguar had. ( as Ford found out)
However, You've got the wrong Jaguar engine. The engine you describe is a 2 valve engine with a cast Iron block. designed in WW2 during fire watch while Germans Bombed Coventry. First used in the 1948 Jaguar XK120 in the 3.4 size. That engine was equal spacing and had a 4.17 stroke. Only in the last version from 1965 on did it get the unequal spacing in order to grow from 3.8- 4.2
The Jaguar engine under discussion ( AJ6 & AJ16) was introduced in 1984. All aluminum. 4 valve engine produced in 2.8 , 3.6, 4.0 and 4.2 w/VVT
GM introduced their version of that engine. In 2002 After attempting to buy Jaguar in the late 1980's Read Saving Jaguar. by John Egan. For all the details.
Just so you are aware, factories sell engines all the time. Ford sold their Flathead V8 to France after 1953. Buick sold their 1962 aluminum Aluminum V8 to Rover, There was some copying of various British and German engines by the Japanese. Jaguar copied the Buick ( and later Chevy ) fireball head for the V12 in 1981
Finally, are you doing SCCA type road racing? wheel to wheel 30+ minutes at a time? I am not talking about autocross, HPDE, or drag racing.
In reply to frenchyd :
Look what arrived in the mail today! My very own copy of Saving Jaguar by John Egan.
I will admit that I did not read the entire book as it is boring as hell. I read Chapter 1 then skipped to Chapter 8 and read to the end of the book other than Chapters 15 and 16. Chapter 9 is titled Dilemma and discusses the AJ6 engine and the first time GM approached Jaguar about buying them out. Unfortuately the two are never even mentioned together on the same page. That leads us to Chapter 17 titled The Ford takeover. On page 209 he talks about them approaching GM to save themselves from Ford (understandable) and GM proposing a joint venture. Finally we get GM and an engine mentioned together:
The General Motors idea was that the XJ80 would use a floorpan, engine and some other components from GM ...
So the theory that GM so loved the AJ6 engine to have copied it makes no sense what so ever if GM was going to use their own engine in the joint venture.
And for the final nail the coffin, after I finished reading what I did, I discovered the damn book has an Index. Surprisingly the word Atlas is not listed in the index at all. General Motors is listed multiple times and I looked up all of them to make sure the AJ6 and GM weren't mentioned together. They were not.
Frenchy this is now the second reference you have given to support your lies. Both have been proven to not say what you claim at all. Are you going to come clean and admit that you made up your "facts"?
I know someone who claims the Volvo five cylinder engine is a copy of the Audi five.
I mean, aside from the different bore centers, different water pump layout, different water jacket geometry, different oil pump layout, completely different oil passage geometry, completely different block structure (ladder frame vs caps), and completely different cylinder head design and combustion chamber shape, they are both 5cyl engines so they must be the same 
GM has an inline six in production right now, the small Duramax.
In reply to Stampie :
Cite your sources properly. You probably didn't read it well enough to his standards. Send it to me.
In reply to yupididit :
I'll text you for your address cause I sure as hell don't need this book.
Stampie said:
In reply to frenchyd :
Look what arrived in the mail today! My very own copy of Saving Jaguar by John Egan.
I will admit that I did not read the entire book as it is boring as hell. I read Chapter 1 then skipped to Chapter 8 and read to the end of the book other than Chapters 15 and 16. Chapter 9 is titled Dilemma and discusses the AJ6 engine and the first time GM approached Jaguar about buying them out. Unfortuately the two are never even mentioned together on the same page. That leads us to Chapter 17 titled The Ford takeover. On page 209 he talks about them approaching GM to save themselves from Ford (understandable) and GM proposing a joint venture. Finally we get GM and an engine mentioned together:
The General Motors idea was that the XJ80 would use a floorpan, engine and some other components from GM ...
So the theory that GM so loved the AJ6 engine to have copied it makes no sense what so ever if GM was going to use their own engine in the joint venture.
And for the final nail the coffin, after I finished reading what I did, I discovered the damn book has an Index. Surprisingly the word Atlas is not listed in the index at all. General Motors is listed multiple times and I looked up all of them to make sure the AJ6 and GM weren't mentioned together. They were not.
Frenchy this is now the second reference you have given to support your lies. Both have been proven to not say what you claim at all. Are you going to come clean and admit that you made up your "facts"?
Stampie.
You are the absolute master of misdirection. You quote one part of the paragraph out of context and say it proves GM's intent.
Read further and earlier that was an initial proposal for a future 50/50 joint venture.
Read further and you will see that such a proposal was being seriously considered. And Jaguar even had meetings with Opel of Germany . The beginnings of such a project.
There are liability laws that must be adhered to. Responsible leaders like John Egan So you will never find out for example exact details of what transpired in board rooms and meetings. Even if proven true the cost of attorneys, time from executives, negative publicity, make it a fools error and John Egan was no fool.
Yes a certain degree of imagination is required to connect the dots. It's logical dot connecting though. Then read page 213.
Even you will admit that Ford and GM are competitors. GM did not like losing to Ford in Acquiring Jaguar. So what exactly are the details of GM coping Jaguars AJ6/AJ16 engine? I doubt even Roger Smith knew.
But The Atlas project began right after the Ford purchase. The similarities of the Atlas and the Jaguar engine are purely a coincidence? Sure you can claim that. Others studying the matter wouldn't agree with your conclusion and arrive at their own.
Just consider these facts.
The last time GM designed an in line six.
The last time they designed a 4 valve over head cam engine. ( Cosworth Vega was purchased from Cosworth).
The timing of the whole affair.
