What Would Make You Register for the $2018 Challenge

A patio with a cage is a porch. Remember that when bringing up cages...

Robbie said:

IF a roll bar is a safety item, can I buy an expensive (like $1k) off-the-shelf pre-fabbed par and slap it on for free and not change the budget of my $2018 car? Or possibly even worse, could I drop my $2018 car off at a race prep shop and pay them to custom fabricate a 4-point roll bar for me?

What would it hurt? There are a lot of bolt in and otherwise off the shelf 4 point bars out there for common applications that would ease the "actual cost" for the non-fab guys. Autopower, Hard Dog, etc. If we're serious about building safe cars and having seat belts, brakes, and lug nuts budget exempt, why do we draw the line at rollover protection? That fancy new budget exempt harness is only as good as what it is bolted to. I'm not suggesting that they should be mandatory for all cars. SCCA and NHRA rules would still dictate if it's required. Making a 4 point budget exempt would just ease the penalty for attempting to build a safer car. It's already a weight penalty. It doesn't improve performance. No need to make it a budget penalty too.

If I was the organizer, I wouldn't want to make someone have to decide between a safety item and some nitrous/turbo/JATO booster because of their budget.

In reply to Patrick :

Calm the berkeley down. I understand your frustration (the team that shall not be named was out of line in 2015) with this question, but I'm new around here and the other guys asking that question probably are too. These kinds of things can be mystifying to those without years of experience in The Challenge. If we don't ask the question, the answer is no.

My chassis will not benefit much from a full cage in the autocross and will undoubtedly be slower in the drag race with one. This is not to say that other chassis won't get a measurable improvement with a cage. The cage WILL make a difference for me during full track work but if I can run all of the intended events with a four point bar, I'll do so. I was hoping to open a dialogue about making it more budget friendly. The Roll BAR suggestion makes sense and would probably give enough crash protection for One Lap and UTCC. It will also make it easier to use a six point harness.

Yeah, lights and gauges? Don't get that either. I was going to remove one of the headlights for the event when I got there. I don't think a flashlight taped to the hood would have much of an impact on budget.

Literally, this is the first sanctioned event that I know of that limits the use of safety equipment by rule. Most of the time it's a requirement. If someone loses control of a 12 second drag car at 110 mph, a typical 12 second trap speed, an OEM roof may not provide the needed level of protection. A simple four point bar is much more likely to protect the driver in that scenario. This is one of those cases where my buddy's mantra, "Hope should not be considered a viable course of action" really applies.

Unemployed Wife.  Tight budget made tighter.  So even with a free car that would counted as FMV, free wheels that would be counted as FMV, said free car still needs a head gasket and the interior stripped out.  Plus spare cash and insurance to drive free car down.  

Maybe next year when (not if) the planets align.

rdcyclist said:

Yeah, lights and gauges? Don't get that either. I was going to remove one of the headlights for the event when I got there. I don't think a flashlight taped to the hood would have much of an impact on budget.

Literally, this is the first sanctioned event that I know of that limits the use of safety equipment by rule. Most of the time it's a requirement. If someone loses control of a 12 second drag car at 110 mph, a typical 12 second trap speed, an OEM roof may not provide the needed level of protection. A simple four point bar is much more likely to protect the driver in that scenario. This is one of those cases where my buddy's mantra, "Hope should not be considered a viable course of action" really applies.

I just don't see how wanting lights, gauges, rollover protection etc. is such a big ask.  People get so heated about it.

If you said - "Hey man a turbo should be exempt because it burns more fuel and it's environmentally safer, and that's safety not performance" - yeah, I would contest that.

I have a hard time seeing how wanting to know if an engine is going to over heat and blow (wet/oily track = dangerous), or wanting to see the drag strip at night, or navigate the pitch black parking lot you drive through is so hard to understand.

The cage/rollover/rollbar thing also seems like a no-brainer to me but....

We ask, the powers that be decide . They say no - we go by their rules.  We don't picket and bring our torches and pitchforks.  

Question was asked, that's it.  Let's move on. Everyone take a breath.

No one is saying you can't have a cage. The rule only states that it has to be in the budget. That is how it is fair for all and the field is level. If you don't want to buy a bender, don't claim that you couldn't. You chose not to for your reason. Others choose to buy the tools for their reasons. 

If you chose not to buy and install a cage it is your decision for your reasons. You can't say or reasonably suggest that it is a safety issue and point at the rule set. You made the decision. Install one and include the cost ....OR.... don't install and don't count the cost.  IT'S YOUR DECISION.  You make the budget and safety level decisions for your entry. 

n8 said:

I’ve got a cheap E-street autocross prepped NA Miata that I could make challenge budget friendly with a few part swaps and come join the specticipants. I’m on the fence about it partly because I feel like bone stock Miatas at the challenge are kind of lame and partly because I want to focus efforts and free time on getting the real entry sorted. 

Our '94 is going to be pretty close to bone stock, but still planning to come & have fun!

In reply to wheels777 :

Exactly. I get that. I have to make a decision about making a capital expenditure of fairly expensive equipment for a once a year event. It's just that from MY point of view, it's not a performance issue, it's a safety issue as well as creating more uses for the vehicle.

We're just asking the question. We're new around here. If GRM wants to continue to have new blood in the event, they're going to have to answer these kind of questions. That's just it, answering questions. I'm sure you know, they're going to come up again next year when new guys and gals start thinking about participating. If I was running this year, I wouldn't even be asking the question; I'd just run it without a bar and hope for the best. I would like to build the car for other events between now and the $2019 Challenge; the rules make it difficult to justify so I'm asking the question.

While I would love to have a mandrel bender, I'm not going to drop the money on one for a single event. I might use it once in a while but it's not something I regularly use. I simply cannot justify the expenditure. I've got the MIG welder and a tube notcher isn't a huge thing. A bender to do roll cage bends is a big thing and you either already had one or you were willing to spend the money on one.

A case could be made that a change in the rules about the cages and bars works against the vets in the event so they're going to argue against it. I'm not saying that's what's happening but to a partial observer on the other side of the fence it could appear that way.

I'm not sure how you can say it isn't a safety issue. Are you suggesting that a car that cost less than 2000 bucks to build is absolutely going to survive a 120mph rollover? E36 M3, you can't even say that about a car with a full cage but you can say for sure the caged car will be safer.

What I'm saying is that I cannot build a caged car that will be competitive within the budget of 2018 bucks and you're right, that's my decision. I am not willing to spend the money on a car for a once a year event if I cannot use it for other events. Those other things require a four point roll bar at a minimum, IMHO.

I am also saying that I'm not going to spend the time and money if I know going in that my car doesn't the slightest chance of placing well. That is also my decision. I'm pretty sure you feel the same way with the success you've had over the years in this event.

This years event with the two autocrosses made the roll bar less important. When the event reverts to the drags, I would anticipate at least a four point bar but would be more comfortable with a full cage. That said, if the rule stays the same, I'm unlikely to drive 5400 miles for an event I cannot be competitive in. My decision either way will not have an appreciable impact on The Challenge in any case and I'll find other things to do closer to home.

rdcyclist said:

Circuit_Motorsports said:

Howabout dropping safety related stuff from the budget?  Lights, gauges, roll bars, etc.?

This is the crux of the problem for me next year....

I know that Lemons cars get an automatic pass into The Challenge ...

.... Not being able to return next year with a competitive car is a real bummer for me. That is the key in this diatribe: Me. I have no idea how many others have brought this up but I can see how the cage as a budget item has a real impact on participation. It does in my case. ...

Newb here thinking about next year:

Over the last week I 'dream-shopped' on Craigslist for a suitable entry to put together for next year. So much to consider: Risks of busting the budget with an unexpected expense, Safety gear needs, Street legal or towed, Buy a car near budget and do a few tweaks, or stripped out husk to build up....

I quickly realized I want to build a light older car up from junk. 80s Civic, Porsche 914, Funky old VW...

Knowing that with all the work going into it, I don't want to have a one-event car, I started looking into 24 Hours of Lemons as another venue. Small investment in the car, BIG investment in the safety. Could I build it for 1 lap too? Probably not with my budget and experience, but it is a way gain experience for future possibilities. I figured that would be cool if I can have one car with two builds - one that hopes to just finish an endurance race and one that can compete in the $2019. Now I don't think that will work since the cost of the cage and other gear required for Lemons may well exceed the $2019 budget.

The rules are the rules. I'm going to build a car because I want to build a car. It may not be acceptable for the $2019 or Lemons, but I'll have my fun. I've had enough time in the grass and mud at Hallett, that I think a roll cage is a good idea for me though.

Worried about stiffness in your challenge car? Weld in scrap for reinforcement $0.

In reply to rdcyclist :

They did answer the question in the rules as posted. If you want to build a Challenge car with a cage or bar....you have to add the cost into the budget. If you want a car with a cage or bar the cost is not included in the budget.... you're building a race car that is not a Challenge car. 

They made the mistake of excluding the cost one year. It was a mistake and the subsequent rule sets required the costs to be included. It was a utter disaster how those with means installed high end cages. That in and of itself is not what the event is about IMO. 

BTW, two thumbs up on building a car. 

rdcyclist:

there is another way to approach the bar/cage conundrum that you are bumping into. bring in a teammate that has a tubing bender and the skills to use it. that was part of the reason that I was brought into the AMC team for last years competition, along with general fabrication knowledge of racecars.

The cost of materials is really quite minimal. The AMC we built last year is a very safe vehicle for an outlay of roughly $250 in cage material. Safety was a primary concern since all of the team have wives and kids to come home to. The car is now getting further mods to be more competitive and usable in other venues, unfortunately that pushes it beyond challenge budget. 

I hope you do come around and decide to join the fun. You can build simple for the challenge and continue modding for uses beyond the challenge.

The cage exempt/not debate was nade simple for me. 

In 99% of applications, its performance enhancing.  That could be counted in chassis stiffness, drag times (not having to sandbag due to rules), and concourse (tjey look awesome). 

When we started the amc, i jacjed up a corner to change a flat. None of the doors, hood, or hatch would open while on the jack. After cage, we could pick up 3 corners by jacking 1. This was a fantastic performance benifit. However, that came with 3 months of fab, 10 lbs of welding wire, 250 in tubing and plate, as well as all the money that had to be spent on things like custom dash, interior paint, seat back braces, etc. 

Exempting the cage us pandoras box.

I have a 4 point in the $2019 miata. Its 75lbs and 200 in the budget. Because i feel its money well spent. It also adds significant chassis stiffening to an already stiff car. I dont NEED it basted on estimates for drag times. But i feel its money and weight well spent in peace of mind. It was a choice between turbo or rollover protection.  

I bought a 4 point cage on Craigslist for 20 bucks. I also bought a roller race car (fully caged) for $250. I've seen a local sale for a complete NASCAR style cage for $100. I expect to have a caged car at minimal cost. It will just take time and patience. It won't likely be fast enough on the drag strip to require it, but it will stiffen up a 1970s chassis quite a bit, so it needs to be in the budget.

In reply to wheels777 :

Got it. This gets to the crux of the matter: I can see that if cage construction isn't budget limited we're going to end up with a $5000 Challenge every year. I'll probably figure out how to install a four point within my budget and maybe you'll see me in Gainseville next year.

I also may figure out how to do my own cage. It's mostly a matter of the bender. I know how to design the structure for safety and torsional rigidity. Just don't have access to the big tool.

Thanks for taking the time to clarify the rationale behind the rule.

In reply to rdcyclist :

If you need a tubing bender, you know the forum to ask!

(Not me, I don't have one, but I'm sure someone here can help you out).

rdcyclist said:

In reply to wheels777 :

What I'm saying is that I cannot build a caged car that will be competitive within the budget of 2018 bucks and you're right, that's my decision. I am not willing to spend the money on a car for a once a year event if I cannot use it for other events. Those other things require a four point roll bar at a minimum, IMHO.

 

And I will point out, again, that if you CHOOSE to build a car that can only be used once a year, that's your choice. It's REALLY easy to build a car to a specific set of rules, and still be competitive at the Challenge. 

Choose a car and a class that you want to be in, and if you really pay attention to making the best car you can, you will very much have a chance of winning that part of the Challenge, and that will give you a very competitive car for the overall.

Even if you go for a radical engine build, but make sure that you can re-install a legal engine later- so that cage effort can be used over many events.  I had a start of a vintage racer Alfa, that I fully intended on winning the autocross with; I've thought about a CSP Miata and Alfa, a *P Alfa Spider, and a host of DM cars (Alfa, Fiat, Miata, etc).  And I'm sure that you can come at the event from the drag racing side just as easily.  And any of those could work with a non-legal powertrain to just go back to a legal one- like a Turbo in an FSP Alfa.  That's a pretty easy replacement back to a FSP car.

While there are some really cool, one-off cars, don't focus on those as the requirement to be competitive in the Challenge.  And, IMHO, those are the cars the can inspire people to go racing.

The other option is competing in the special class each year.  If you buy the vehicle well you can often sell it afterwards for at least what you bought it for.  My point is you can enter the challenge, enjoy the event  and then sell the car eliminating the need to build a car for a once a year event.

I made a profit on both aristocrat cars I bought after the challenge.  I still have the pick up truck from last year for doing pick up truck stuff.  I plan to profit off this years car when I am through with it...  I have a great time each year despite never competing for the overall win.

I won't be there because I am getting married on sat 13. Will be there next year. Already discussed the anniversary/ vacation time for next year. 

Tbh,

1. Around $1,000 for lost revenue from not working.

2. Hotel and food paid for.

3. A ride.

I have followed the GRM Budget Challenge for years and look forward to the Budget Challenge & UTCC issues arrival every year. I have competed in the UTCC twice, but have never entered the Budget Challenge until now.  I had already signed up before this topic question was asked, but it seems the original question was to get feedback on participation, so I will tell you why I did sign up. The opportunity for me and my son to have some fun and share an event that I have followed in the magazine for years. Our plan is to improve a car that my dad had already purchased earlier this year within $2018 budget, enjoy a road trip to Florida by driving it down, both of us run the car at the competition , drive the car home and return it to my dad in its improved condition. My son has never ran auto-X but has done a track day. Was hoping to let him experience drag racing for the 1st time also, but we can do that later.  

I'll admit, when I found out that the drag races were canceled this year, the competitive monster in my brain tried to get me to scrap the "fun trip" plan and substitute a "lets win this" plan with a track car I have that is much better suited for auto-x (but poor for drag racing) and would be rules legal. Glad I took time to talk myself out of that plan and return my focus to a low pressure relaxed event that we can enjoy. 

Also as feedback, I will add that one of the reasons I have not entered before now is that the concours portion of the event heavily rewards creativity, fabrication skills and ingenuity as well it should. I appreciate the craftsmanship and its one of the reasons I follow the event in the magazine.  Unfortunately utilizing all that talent involves an investment of time that many of us cannot afford.  So my perception has been that a car that was just found with extraordinary value and performance within the budget and  that has not had countless hours of fabrication time invested wouldn't be a desirable entry. 

In reply to WheelPowerracing :

With that attitude you and your son will have a wonderful time regardless of where you finish. Good luck!

stan_d said:

I won't be there because I am getting married on sat 13. Will be there next year. Already discussed the anniversary/ vacation time for next year. 

Congratulations, Stan! This is absolutely the best reason yet for missing this year's Challenge!  

Danny Shields said:

stan_d said:

I won't be there because I am getting married on sat 13. Will be there next year. Already discussed the anniversary/ vacation time for next year. 

Congratulations, Stan! This is absolutely the best reason yet for missing this year's Challenge!  

Not an acceptable reason, just illustrates poor planning. Congratulations anyway , Stan ! 

I came to the challenge last year for the first time after talking about it for a decade. I had a massive set back at work immediately before we left, I drove poorly all weekend, I spent most of the raceday trying to band-aid a fellow competitors car and it was still one of the best weekends of motorsport I have ever been a part of. 

Ive spent roughly the last 14 months planning and building a dragster only to see the drags canceled for the year.

I bumped my $2019 car to the front of the line and in a few weeks have taken a rusty MR2 that was acquired by out-drinking WDC SCCA people, built and installed a drivetrain, capable suspension, and lotsa bondo.  It may or may not make the event but either way I'll be there

Yes Im a professional mechanic/fabricator yes I have tons of tools/equipment but anybody can prep a car for this event. I literally drove last years car to the shop and rolled it on the trailer. No prep at all and ran mid pack. 

How to make the event work? How to get me to keep coming? Keep doing what you're doing. 

P.S I see both sides of the cage issue if a roll bar/cage is keeping anybody from competing get in touch I'm happy to loan bender/notcher/welding etc for the cost of materials. 

What a great offer, 

HAVE YOU GOT DIRECTIONS.